Opinions on Cold Steel

Intended use versus actual use is the key. The CS folks win hands down at making a good knife to leave on the coffee table to impress any teenage visitors. Walk in a hardware store and look at what is competing against them from Joe Sixpack's perspective. Buck, Gerber folders, leathermen and Case knives. Face it, to Joe Sixpack the CS knives look almost as military as Rambo's. Must be good as they cost more than the hardware store Buck knife. The second category of customer is the guy (or gal) who has never been in a survival situation in his life but recognizes something better than a paring knife might be called for on their upcoming overnight "camping trip" at the family camp grounds. The probable competition is the hollow handled survival knife sold on the back of magazines for $10 to $20. Watch the CS video then decide. Nothing puts confidence on their hip like an SRK or a Trailmaster as they bravely stroll through rabbit country and walk past the other people's mobile homes.

Licensed hunters make up less than 5% of America's population. Well less than half of the hunters ever get more than a mile from their car. When I was a kid you could find places where you were 50 miles or more from another person. That was a long time ago. Finding a place where you are 5 miles from another person and out of cell phone range is a lot harder now days. Those of us who go to such places are a very small portion of any manufacturers potential consumer market. Not one Bowie knife buyer in 1,000 will ever actually use it to battle a Grizzly bear or even a small cougar. When America was young those things (Grizzly and cougar) attacks happened with some frequency. Not any more. Why should CS pay any attention to such a small slice of the market? (BTW, Detroit openly made the same decision on 4 wheel drive vehicles a decade ago. Their studies showed only 2% of their 4 wheel drive customer base really needed rugged all terrain vehicles. It was easiest and cheapest to just drop those customers and market junk with glitter and plastic gears and plastic bumpers, which is what they did.) CS can expect very few returns from military fighting knife customers. Several reasons. Military knife fights are a rarity in this century. The last pitched hand to hand battles involving US troops were probably back in 1950. If it actually happens and if the knife works well enough for the user to survive, it stabs and it cuts and the customer is satisfied and is usable in a commercial testimonial. Stabbing and slashing a human is not too hard on a blade and the Carbon V blades are probably up to doing that once or twice. If the blade totally fails the customer probably won't get to complain. The problem customer is the guy who lives 10 miles or more from a road, or who often finds themselves in an extreme situation with the product. Let's ignore him. If he complains about our product we can, 1) impeach his sanity pointing to where he was as proof, 2) claim no other person has made this complaint 3) claim abuse of the product in an unexpected and not sanctioned fashion, 4) offer to send them a replacement knife.
 
If your carbon knife rusts to death in your pocket in a few weeks, you just aren't taking care of it. It is fine to say you don't want to carry a knife you have to take care of, but it does raise the question of what kind of abuse you are laying on the product in practice. You would just as quickly rust out an all carbon damascus folder costing 3 grand.

Same with prying. No knife should be used as a prybar, the temper is wrong, and the edge will fold or chip off. I'm in part a cabinetmaker. Most top end chisels are seriously well made forged tools costing 25-500 bucks each. We never pry them in a cut, and we make are living deconstructing tress in a way that most knife guys seem to think is the ultimate backyard test.

If you want to test a knife just like Lynn, then take your own knife in your hand, beat it to death, and suffer the concequences. Don't ask for the company guarantee policy to be such that if you screw up you have a multi million dollar backstop for your incompetance.

Krizzard, I feel the same way about the Desp. They explain it pretty well in the More tape. It has an ability to hook in like a Kerambit (my choice of image) while having the point recurve back to be useful for something other than slashing. The odd handle allows a variety of grips, including some not unlike a push handle, without the regulatory interest. Overall it's short. people around here have so scared me on the 420, and I don't like the serations, or the look, but functionaly it might have a place.
 
I'm a fixed blade enthusiast so their mostly crappy line of folders is of no concern to me. I avoid all knives whose cutting edge is made of any 420 alloy.

If you stay with their fixed blade, non-420 knives, you won't be disappointed. As was mentioned earlier, only a fool pays anything close to MSRP for a CS knife. They can be had, brand new, on ebay for 45-55% less than MSRP with minimal effort.

That's not even considering the great value in the used CS market. For example, I recently picked up a Magnum IX Tanto (pre-San Mai III) for $110. This knife retailed for ~$325 when new. It was dull and had some light scratches on the blade. Some time on my Sharpmaker and 10 minutes of polishing with Flitz - viola - a razor-sharp 9" beauty!
 
Over the years I've learned an enormous amount about the Trail Master Bowie. In the end I like the knife quite a bit and have kept one around for years now. I had one that was modified by Wayne Goddard years ago and it was superb. I currently own a stock TM and am well pleased with it as an overall camp and CQB blade.

I've had an on-again / off-again love affair with the CS Tanto (San Mai). Much of my appreciation for this model comes from knowing and talking at length with CS design consultant, the late Ernie Franco. Before seeing this thread I'd just stumbled into an estate sale and picked up a pristine Emperor's Model CS San Mai tanto for just over $100 + sheath (unused). Peaked back, special edition, very nice CQB mid-range knife and superb quality / workmanship.

Traded into a Gunsite CS tanto folder right before 9-11. Then issue item for SOAR 160 air crews. Okay folder but it lost its conventional edge fairly rapidly and the construction was not what I'd have expected (lock system was not as finely fitted as I've seen or earlier model CS folders).

I tend to lean toward finding the older CS products if possible as the workmanship and materials are, IMHO, just better. And it's fun running into these gems:)

On 420 - Low end steel for cutlery use. Years ago Al Mar brought out a few low end tactical fixed blades under a different brand name than his AMK line. He was using 420 in these knives because it allowed for the products to be priced at the low end and hence available to folks just wanting a unique design that they could afford...and afford to lose or leave behind. We covered two of these knives in Fighting Knives magazine (first three issues as I recall). You can't dress 420 up regardless and the best you can do is temper it properly for the catagory of blade you're making. As 420 commercially is used to keep steel costs / manufacturing costs down not a whole lot of folks are going to spend $$ ensuring the perfect heat treatment for a low end knife coming from this steel.

On another note I really like the CRK&T Special Forces tanto folder (large) in all-black. Seen several of these in Iraq and they are available in the PX system but man, do they go fast for $69.00! Very durable, great lock-up, sharp right out of the package, excellent clip system, and all-around tough tactical folder. Congrats to CRK&T for one fine product here.

GW
 
Greg, what was CS using for their stainless before AUS8?


IIRC, they only listed it as “400 series”.



- Frank
 
On the knives, I too have been using a Wayne Goddard modified Trailmaster for more than 10 years. Used primarily to trim branches before the chainsaw work. Very good performance.

On another note, other than the knives. Most that have been around the knife industry for a few years know that Spyderco invented the clothing clip for knives. Since Spyderco created the clothing clip, (which was not patentable) back in 1981, only a few have acutally asked Spyderco's permission to use a clip (Al Mar being one).

To date, Lynn Thompson not only asked, he was the only knife company in the world that elected to and paid for said use of the clothing clip because he thought it was the fair thing to do.


sal
 
Been so long I can't recall.

AUS8 was, as I remember, the stainless steel Al Mar originally used and promoted as being unique to the AMK line at the time. It is a very good all-around cutlery steel and can be used across the board for many different catagories of blade (intended use).

Again, dredging up memories from yore, AUS8 was/is the Japanese equivilent of 154CM, at least that's how Al conveyed it to me at the time.

In reality, the 400 series of stainless steels is pretty good all-around. 440A/B/C are solid cutlery steels IF heat treated properly. They are reasonably priced for mass production blades and offer a nice medium, or balance, across the board where edge holding, durability, and so on are of issue.

The rage for exotic cutlery steels became as much a marketing tool as anything else and everyone seemed to have to have the "magic" steel for his or her design. For years ATS-34 reigned supreme...only to have a newer (or newly rediscovered) steel come onto the scene.

CS has done a great deal of research into steels for knives and they know what they're working with as well as anyone else out there. And, as with everyone else out there in manufacturing, steel costs + manufacturing costs wherever the knives are being made is extremely critical when it comes to price point and competition.

That will affect steel selection for certain models as much, if not more so, than anything else.

Great blades are made from 154CM and 440A or 440C steels. Properly designed, heat treated, and with the appropriate edge geometery for the intended task, such knives are more than acceptable, durable, and affordable.

D2 tool steel is a great steel for cutlery if handled properly, as well.

GW

PS: Zytel, or synthetic plastic grips / handles, were pioneered by Al Mar. In the mid-80s he began introducing synthetic handle folders and many in the specialty cutlery industry just smirked...the rage being Micarta (which Mar had already done and done better than anyone else). Today Zytel and other hard synthetics are the rage...and being hyped by some of the very designers and makers who ignored this trend back in the 80s and early 90s. Kinda a trip

:)
 
There are guys who are passionate about their Benchmades, their Spydies, their Cold Steels, their Sebbies, etc., etc., etc. And some will fight to the death it seems to defend their favorites. But it's really about what's important to them. The steel, the lock, the handle ergonomics, the design, the quality, the utility, the price, etc., everyone has their priorities and blend them together to make choices. And of course, good or bad experiences with a particular brand can form a loyalty or prejudice. I generally favor Spydercos for a lot of reasons, but I know there are Benchmade guys who would say they don't have an Axis lock so forget it! That's cool, it's all good! Part of the equation is objective, and part is subjective. The subjective part is why there are 1000s of different offerings out there (which wouldn't be made if they weren't purchased). Respect and appreciate the diversity. Buy and let buy.
 
Originally posted by Sal Glesser
On the knives, I too have been using a Wayne Goddard modified Trailmaster for more than 10 years. Used primarily to trim branches before the chainsaw work. Very good performance.

On another note, other than the knives. Most that have been around the knife industry for a few years know that Spyderco invented the clothing clip for knives. Since Spyderco created the clothing clip, (which was not patentable) back in 1981, only a few have acutally asked Spyderco's permission to use a clip (Al Mar being one).

To date, Lynn Thompson not only asked, he was the only knife company in the world that elected to and paid for said use of the clothing clip because he thought it was the fair thing to do.


sal
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Just two days ago I picked up my first Spyderco product, a 204 Sharpmaker. I've sharpened two 9" knives in that time and I believe it to be a great product. The video you guys made was quite educational and fun to watch.

My question:
Will Spyderco ever make a medium-to-large fixed blade knife, for example with a 7-9" blade? I'd love to see that.
 
Simple answer :

Cold Steel makes excellent knives for the price. They are hard working knives, good bang for the buck. But, Lynn Thomson is an idiot !

:D
 
Hi ya Sal:)

Long time no hear. Merry Christmas to you and yours:D

Just returned from second tour of Baghdad. As always I took my Spyderco Matriarch with me as personal defense carry folder. That made two trips for the knife to the war zone. Before leaving this time around I gave as gift to a very dear friend of mine who is major in the Kurdish military wing (Pesh Merga). He values it highly and keeps it with him wherever he goes these days.

Now I gotta hunt me up another one:(

But that's okay.

Yes, always important to remind folks who did the right and honorable thing years ago and that certainly was Al Mar with respect to his wonderful respect and relationship with yourself and Spyderco. He was the same with Randall Knives when he agreed to change the name of the AMK Pathfinder to the Quest at Gary's request (Randall had a model titled the Pathfinder for a number of years and Al didn't learn of it til Gary called him one day), and he ensured Rex Applegate's preference for a OD green handle on the AMK Applegate-Fairbairn over a black handle (which was the custom version's selected color) even though sales of the AMK model were dismal due to the consumer dislike for an OD colored grip (at the time).

Always a gentleman, always a class act, always straightforward. The industry is a poorer place today without Al Mar in it.

Good of you to remind us of that:)

GW
 
Originally posted by beluga
Simple answer :

Cold Steel makes excellent knives for the price. They are hard working knives, good bang for the buck. But, Lynn Thomson is an idiot !

:D
Click to expand...

Cool...why is he an idiot?

I'm not challanging the statement; I've heard it more then once, but I never got to hear why.

:cool:
 
He keeps saying bad things about things that he does not even completely understands. For example; the recent him saying bad things about Strider knives (and Emerson) and kerambit. That idiot guy is a "knife-fighting instructor" because he's had thousands of practice and sparring hours :rolleyes: righttttt.......

He does not even know the full capability of kerambit, never had any normal silat training utilizing kerambit, but he keeps saying that kerambits are overrated. That idiot !

Read this article completely for more info : http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/csstoreonline/Karambit.pdf
 
Originally posted by beluga
He keeps saying bad things about things that he does not even completely understands. For example; the recent him saying bad things about Strider knives (and Emerson) and kerambit. That idiot guy is a "knife-fighting instructor" because he's had thousands of practice and sparring hours :rolleyes: righttttt.......

He does not even know the full capability of kerambit, never had any normal silat training utilizing kerambit, but he keeps saying that kerambits are overrated. That idiot !

Read this article completely for more info : http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/csstoreonline/Karambit.pdf
Click to expand...

:eek: O.K....its obvious to me that he doesn't really know how a Kerambit can be used. Yup..that was pretty idiotic. Who needs countless hours....I'd love to spar with him for a few minutes.
:rolleyes:
 
Greg, AUS8 is similar to 440B, 154CM is the same as ATS-34.Having used a CS stainless master hunter for years I think it's well designed and made - a good practical and rugged knife.
 
Thanks.

I owned/used a master hunter and found it an exceptional production knife. no complaints.

Again, it's all in the heat treatment and intended application(s) of the blade + proper design. The standard cutlery steels are pretty darned good and remain so.

Merry Christmas!

GW
 
I own a 15 year old CS folder with a 3" San Mai III Tanto blade that is one of the finest knives I own. The blade is far tougher than anything I have ever used, and that includes all the Schrades, Gerbers, Spydercos and Benchmades in my collection. It has no thumb stud, just a slot in the blade, and it came in a horizontal nylon sheath that has since fallen apart, but the edge on this knife is just phenomenal.

Yes, 420 is junk, but people who uniformly trash the whole Company because the owner might be a pompous ass or because _some_ of the knives he sells are low quality just don't know what they're talking about. I have a 5 year old Gunsite 5" folder (just a large Voyager with the gunsite logo) in AUS-8 that was so sharp out of the box it was scary. The only thing I ever got that sharp OOB from the factory was an original ship 4" 1996 Gerber Applegate folder. The blade is again a super strong Tanto style, and is for my book the ONE knife I carry when defense is all I'm thinking about, and like many of you I have a couple of hundred to choose from. The "plastic" handle is practically indestructible. I recently bought a 4" clip point Voyager in the same steel for about $40 and it has the same incredible edge and light weight.

I think the Carbon V steel is good, and the Trailmaster Bowie is a good $100 work knife if you want a large knife. The OSS is poor steel, but look at the much higher-end sub-hilt Black Bear Classic for a beautiful piece of work. Or tell me the Tai-pan double edged fighting knife is cheap. I have seen their videos of them chucking these knives (fixed and folders) into a vice and bending them 30 degrees sideways. Sorry, but as much as I love my Spydercos, they would not take this kind of punishment.

Overall, since the discussion was on folders, I think they make a hell of a good solid knife, at least the Voyager series. I also like their Balisongs, and have a couple of their Kukris. They're not up to native quality, but are good solid brush clearing blades and can be easily sharpened because of the steel.

Sorry to go on so long, it just irks me to see folks who know little about them diss them so out-of-hand when comparing them to other mfrs., etc.

Thanks!

Svashtar
 
Im a fixed blade enthusiast so their mostly crappy line of folders is of no concern to me. I avoid all knives whose cutting edge is made of any 420 alloy.

_________________________________

Sorry, but then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. I just checked their new catalog and couldn't find a single folder using 420. All were either AUS-8A, AUS-6, Carbon V or 440C. Offhand, the only 420 knives I could find were the fixed blade OSS (being discontinued), the ODA and UWK fixed blades, the 2 Peace Keeper blades and the little Safe Keeper punch knives. The Tai-Pan fixed double blade is the SOG Desert dagger on steroids so eliminates the Peace Keepers anyway.

There may be an exception I didn't see, but at least 99% of all their _quality_ folders don't use any 400 series steels.

If you are eliminating them from consideration based solely on this incorrect assumption, then you are missing a bet, and if you like fixed blades as you say you should at least check out the Tai Pan and the Black Bear Classic. I'm saving now for a set of their Warrior Series Samurai swords.

Regards,

Svashtar
 
Originally posted by Svashtar
Im a fixed blade enthusiast so their mostly crappy line of folders is of no concern to me. I avoid all knives whose cutting edge is made of any 420 alloy.

_________________________________

Sorry, but then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. I just checked their new catalog and couldn't find a single folder using 420. All were either AUS-8A, AUS-6, Carbon V or 440C. Offhand, the only 420 knives I could find were the fixed blade OSS (being discontinued), the ODA and UWK fixed blades, the 2 Peace Keeper blades and the little Safe Keeper punch knives. The Tai-Pan fixed double blade is the SOG Desert dagger on steroids so eliminates the Peace Keepers anyway.

There may be an exception I didn't see, but at least 99% of all their _quality_ folders don't use any 400 series steels.

If you are eliminating them from consideration based solely on this incorrect assumption, then you are missing a bet,
Click to expand...


My distaste for their folders is not due to their steel type. It's because I don't like their basic level of construction using Zytel handles and lockbacks. Regardless, since I'm not really in to folders, whatever the Cold Steel folder line is or isn't is of no concern to me.

I see how you read my original comment to mean I don't like their folders because they use 420 steel. That's not what I meant. The two statements are unrelated to one another, even though I listed them together. Allow me to clarify:
I don't like their folders because of their basic level of construction using Zytel handles and lockbacks. The 420 comment was directed towards their low-end fixed blades.

and if you like fixed blades as you say you should at least check out the Tai Pan and the Black Bear Classic.
Click to expand...


Yes, their higher-end fixed blades are very well made knives, especially for the money. I own an R1 Military Classic and she's a beaut.

I'm saving now for a set of their Warrior Series Samurai swords.
Click to expand...


If you're in the market for a Katana, keep in mind that Cold Steel's Katana blades are not differentially tempered. This type of heat-treat on the blade is one of the main features of a traditional Katana that makes it so interesting. 60 RC on the edge and 40 RC on the spine give the blade great edge-holding ability and great toughness.
 
Interesting. So the _entire_ blade is 58-60R or whatever? The only info I have is that the CS Warrior series is made of 1050 high carbon steel.

Well, I'm open to suggestions. I wanted a 3 sword set, with a Katana, Wakazashi and Tanto, and my budget for all is about a grand. If you have any suggestions I would appreciate your input, or let me know if I need to save some more to get something decent.

Regards,

Svashtar
 
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