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Opinions on Greco knives
- Thread starter Orion
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Cliff, I'm not so sure why you are irritated about the way I was treated by John and Sherry. I felt I got great customer service. Most companies would've told me to shove off because I wasn't the original owner. He reconditioned the blade, reground it, and had it back to me in a week and it cost next to nothing. Maybe your idea of customer service is different, so if it is please explain what you think would be appropriate.
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Cliff Stamp
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Chiro, the way Greco handled the situation doesn't irritate me, it simply means I now have no confidence in his knives. Why this is so, and how it could have been handled to prevent this conclusion, I described in an above post where I replied to a comment by Stompy about the steel choice.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-08-2000).]
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-08-2000).]
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I guess there is perhaps a disagreement between underlying assumptions about how a knife should perform under certain stresses. It sort of comes down to making certain parts of the knife tough or hard.
I think that everyone agrees that a knife blade should not break in half with any reasonable working stress. How the tip of the knife should perform to high stress may be more debateable. If you expect to do a lot of cutting with the tip of the blade you may want it hard and consequently more subject to breaking than if it is soft. I generally expect to do a lot of cutting with the tip and prefer it to be hard. I would expect the tip of my cutting knife to break if stuck in wood and levered like a can opener. I would expect to repair the tip of such a knife if I over-stressed it that way (correction, I have frequently reground the tips of knives for that reason). Perhaps John Greco has some of the same underlying view of how a thin tipped fighting knife "should be" made and consequently how it should fail and he doesn't identify with Cliff's conviction that tips shouldn't break.
There are other points of view that would say: "tips shouldn't dull", "tips shouldn't bend", or "tips should be thin for optimum slashing". Perhaps John made his technical tradeoff for cutting performance on this knife tip over toughness so long ago that he sees it as an obvious owner decision when the owner buys and uses the knife. You chose the knife with its obvious design elements and you are free to lever with the tip, but you are deciding to rework the tip occasionally. Rework usually involves straightening a bent tip, but sometimes it means regrinding. I dislike bent tips sufficiently that I might regrind a bent tip the same as a broken tip. Breaking the tip just isn't that big a deal. Even in a survival situation I can work with a broken tip.
It's possible that John never heard the question that Cliff would have asked: "If I lever the tip in wood do you guarantee it not to break?" To him it would be a nonsensical question. It would be like asking "do you guarantee this watch will work as a time bomb fuse?" You can do all these things, you're an adult and can make your own decisions, you will probably get your job done, but there will be consequental damage to using a tool for something other than its designed purpose. Sometimes parts will bend, sometimes there will be chipping or corners break off, but nothing that can't be repaired. So, go right ahead and do it, if it makes you happy. John will refurbish it when you're done for a nominal fee. He's not going to tell you it was a dumb thing to do with that type of knife.
I think that everyone agrees that a knife blade should not break in half with any reasonable working stress. How the tip of the knife should perform to high stress may be more debateable. If you expect to do a lot of cutting with the tip of the blade you may want it hard and consequently more subject to breaking than if it is soft. I generally expect to do a lot of cutting with the tip and prefer it to be hard. I would expect the tip of my cutting knife to break if stuck in wood and levered like a can opener. I would expect to repair the tip of such a knife if I over-stressed it that way (correction, I have frequently reground the tips of knives for that reason). Perhaps John Greco has some of the same underlying view of how a thin tipped fighting knife "should be" made and consequently how it should fail and he doesn't identify with Cliff's conviction that tips shouldn't break.
There are other points of view that would say: "tips shouldn't dull", "tips shouldn't bend", or "tips should be thin for optimum slashing". Perhaps John made his technical tradeoff for cutting performance on this knife tip over toughness so long ago that he sees it as an obvious owner decision when the owner buys and uses the knife. You chose the knife with its obvious design elements and you are free to lever with the tip, but you are deciding to rework the tip occasionally. Rework usually involves straightening a bent tip, but sometimes it means regrinding. I dislike bent tips sufficiently that I might regrind a bent tip the same as a broken tip. Breaking the tip just isn't that big a deal. Even in a survival situation I can work with a broken tip.
It's possible that John never heard the question that Cliff would have asked: "If I lever the tip in wood do you guarantee it not to break?" To him it would be a nonsensical question. It would be like asking "do you guarantee this watch will work as a time bomb fuse?" You can do all these things, you're an adult and can make your own decisions, you will probably get your job done, but there will be consequental damage to using a tool for something other than its designed purpose. Sometimes parts will bend, sometimes there will be chipping or corners break off, but nothing that can't be repaired. So, go right ahead and do it, if it makes you happy. John will refurbish it when you're done for a nominal fee. He's not going to tell you it was a dumb thing to do with that type of knife.
Cobalt
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- Dec 23, 1998
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Chiro, it's not irritation, but more of a lack of confidence. You stated that you stuck 1/4 inch of the knife into wood and pried, with the outcome being a broken tip 1/2 or so. First of all, this is unacceptable. I have done worse than this with cheap knives with no effect, and have done this with more expensive knives with no effect. This is obviously not good, yet he fixed it and charged you for it, if I'm not mistaken. The knife should have been replaced, or repaired for FREE.
not2sharp
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Cobalt,
I am with Jeff on this one. Your cheap knife may have been very tough and very soft. The Greco may be harder and weaker. Which is better or worst is a matter of preference and purpose of task.
Is a good fighter suppose to bend or break. I don't know, but I recall that the Sykes had a reputation for breaking. If you are going to pry you should use a knife with a suitable blade geometry.
Go with a tanto or a heavy utility pattern like the Busse BM or Cattaraugus Q225 if you want to use the knife to pry. There is no magic here. That is why knives like the Ka-bar were purposely kept relatively soft, and why the reinforce point was the key selling driver behind the americanized tantos.
I am with Jeff on this one. Your cheap knife may have been very tough and very soft. The Greco may be harder and weaker. Which is better or worst is a matter of preference and purpose of task.
Is a good fighter suppose to bend or break. I don't know, but I recall that the Sykes had a reputation for breaking. If you are going to pry you should use a knife with a suitable blade geometry.
Go with a tanto or a heavy utility pattern like the Busse BM or Cattaraugus Q225 if you want to use the knife to pry. There is no magic here. That is why knives like the Ka-bar were purposely kept relatively soft, and why the reinforce point was the key selling driver behind the americanized tantos.
Cliff Stamp
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Jeff, of course people's opinions on knife performance will differ and yes I realize that there are some that think that what happened to the Greco is perfectly reasonable. In fact I would not be surprised if Spark polled the members this is what the majority would say.
To clarify, based on the work I have done, which includes breaking blades in exactly this manner, where that blade broke and the level of stress used to induce the failure indicate low performance to me. How it was handled by the maker indicates a similar level of customer service.
-Cliff
To clarify, based on the work I have done, which includes breaking blades in exactly this manner, where that blade broke and the level of stress used to induce the failure indicate low performance to me. How it was handled by the maker indicates a similar level of customer service.
-Cliff
- Joined
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The additional charge was for shipping (priority mail- $5 insured) and for reconditioning of the knife (new bead blast and new coating of laquer). He said he would do the repair for free, which would have left me with one ugly knife, so I went ahead and paid the $7 for the full reconditioning. Pretty darn reasonable if you ask me, guys. I think you are expecting WAYYYYY too much.
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Greco knives seem like a great concept, simple steels, good workmanship, excellent designs. I bought one myself, a Cub Companion, in 1084 and micarta. Brilliant design, well made. Great folks to talk to on the phone. Unfortunately, the edge was ground so thick that even though it was sharp enough to shave hair, it could barely be forced through half inch sisal rope. Really strong, but worthless as a cutting tool in my opinion. My apologies to the person I sold it too (at a big discount), I'll give you your money back if you like.
Cobalt
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I don't think it's the steel that is the issue. At least I would hope not. A-2 has been around for a long time and any knife maker using it should know how to work it.
It could either be the heat treat or the grind being very thin. Whatever the case, when I can take an ontario bagwell bowie, which is definitely not designed for prying, and do that same test and pass it easily several times, then there is something wrong with the other knife. I might understand a thin folding knife bending and/or breaking at the tip but not a fixed blade.
Funny thing is that I have never heard of a tip breakege on a chris reeve project knife.
But I'm with Cliff on this one, neither the performance nor the warranty impresses me.
But whatever floats your boat.
by the way, I just got the Campanion in from BK&T and it definitely has the looks of a work horse. Quality of fit and finish is very good for a manufactured knife.
I have always taken for granted that any decent fixed blade should be able to pop wood out at 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch depth. I now make it a requirement, for me. When I receive a knife, that is the first thing I do to it. I will go to a log or 2/4 and start poppin wood out of it to see if the tip breaks or bends. If either happens, I consider it a POS and get rid of it. Of course this is all within reason. I would not expect a thin ground blade to do this.
It could either be the heat treat or the grind being very thin. Whatever the case, when I can take an ontario bagwell bowie, which is definitely not designed for prying, and do that same test and pass it easily several times, then there is something wrong with the other knife. I might understand a thin folding knife bending and/or breaking at the tip but not a fixed blade.
Funny thing is that I have never heard of a tip breakege on a chris reeve project knife.
But I'm with Cliff on this one, neither the performance nor the warranty impresses me.
But whatever floats your boat.
by the way, I just got the Campanion in from BK&T and it definitely has the looks of a work horse. Quality of fit and finish is very good for a manufactured knife.
I have always taken for granted that any decent fixed blade should be able to pop wood out at 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch depth. I now make it a requirement, for me. When I receive a knife, that is the first thing I do to it. I will go to a log or 2/4 and start poppin wood out of it to see if the tip breaks or bends. If either happens, I consider it a POS and get rid of it. Of course this is all within reason. I would not expect a thin ground blade to do this.
Cliff Stamp
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Cobalt, regarding the cross section, yes if the blade was really thin then it will not have the strength to pop wood out. However it should just flex and absorb the strain not fracture violently above the entry point. As for depth, I go up to about 3/4" inch now on the stronger combat or heavy duty knives.
Most steels when they are that thin in cross section will bend to extremes when flexed. For example I have taken a 1/8" thick, 18" long Ontario machete (1095) and bent it until the handle was facing backward. The only blades that will fracture suddenly with really thin profiles are stainless steels that are near maxed out in hardness.
However even with those blades (ATS-34, 59-61 RC) with very thin profiles, under 1/32" at the fracture point, they snap deep in the wood where the stress is maximized and have significantly more flexibility than the Greco Chiro used.
-Cliff
Most steels when they are that thin in cross section will bend to extremes when flexed. For example I have taken a 1/8" thick, 18" long Ontario machete (1095) and bent it until the handle was facing backward. The only blades that will fracture suddenly with really thin profiles are stainless steels that are near maxed out in hardness.
However even with those blades (ATS-34, 59-61 RC) with very thin profiles, under 1/32" at the fracture point, they snap deep in the wood where the stress is maximized and have significantly more flexibility than the Greco Chiro used.
-Cliff
Cobalt
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Cliff, that was my point, A-2 at 56 Rc would not have snapped. However, if hardened to too high an Rc, then it may have happened. My point is that the knife in question bares more than just fixing. It should have been tested for hardness all else being equal.
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I believe that, far beyond heat treatment or type of steel, simply the amount of steel at the tip is what really determines its durability. If the tip is thin, it will either bend or break depending on heat treatment. The more you want to abuse the tip, the thicker it better be. Mistakes can be made in heat treatment, but it is the shape and grind of the tip that really determines how much prying you can do with it.