Opinions please S5 "shock steel"

ERdept

ERdept

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I tried a search on the forum under "S5" and came up with nothing. The only thing that I know is that it is a steel that is used in pneumatic tools, punch dies, steel cutting tools. How is this as a knife blade and why aren't poeple using it if it's so tough and good, but not rust resistant?

Cliff
 
Generally the shock steels (the S series) are not as hard as tool steels or cutlery steels. They would not stay sharp as long as those steels in normal application. I have seen S7 used in things like axes. I have a hatchet from Knives of Alaska which has an S7 head. I can't think of an example, but someone probably makes a bowie knife out of S7.
 
Why did you pick S5 over the other grades of shock resistant steel?

I've heard of knives made from S7. Crucible makes a blade steel called CPM 3V. It has close to the same charpy numbers as S7 but holds an edge better.
 
He makes the Death Merchant knife and uses S5, Robert Hankins. I didn't know that the material doesn't hold up well. He answered my ad for trading a rifle for a Busse knife in the trade forum. My rifle is a Marlin 1895 Cowboy, that is brand new and work $500+. I hear he is a great up and coming maker, but the steel, I've found out now, doesn't compare to the steels I usually like, which is 3V and S30.

So I don't think the trade is worth the steel used in the knife.

Cliff
 
Maybe you are over-interpreting what I said about S5. I would not use it for a regular hunting knife, but I would really like to see it in a survival or combat knife. It should be extremely tough and hard to break. It would need sharpening oftener than some high end steels, but it could take abuse that they couldn't. If you saw yourself chopping through barbed wire fences you might like S5.
 
Jeff Clark said:
I can't think of an example, but someone probably makes a bowie knife out of S7.
Click to expand...
I think SOG's Recon Bowie is made with S5.
 
Both S5 and S7 are great steels, given what they are good at doing. No they will not hold a edge like some of the other super steels but you can put them through abuse that most steels could not even start to take. You will have to sharpen it more often but it is easy to sharpen in the field with any type of sharpening device unlike 3V or S30V which can be a major pain. Justin Gingrich of Ranger Knives uses a fair amount of S7 . I have a couple of knives in S7 and I am very happy with them. S5 is a oil hardening steel while S7 is a air hardening steel but you can expect similar proformance from each. In my bug out bag is a Ranger S7 bowie partly bescause I have total faith in the steel. I would have the same faith in a 3V knife but I may not always have my Ez-Lap stone to sharpen it which could be a problem depending on your use and available equipment.
 
ER don't count out S5 just yet. According to Crucible "S5 is a shock resisting tool steel capable of maximum toughness at relatively high hardness. It has excellent resistance to impact and battering, with good edge retention".
Typical chemistry
carbon 0.60%
manganese 0.85%
silicon 1.90%
chromium 0.25%
molybdenum 0.30%
vanadium 0.20%
The quench is water or oil for hardening. High end hardening is quenched in oil, low end hardening is quenched in water. It can be hardened to an HRC of 60-61.
S7 on the other hand has a maximum hardness of 59 HRC. Hardening for S7 is air, positive pressure vacuum, interrupted oil to 150F.
Typical chemistry for S7 is
carbon 0.55%
manganese 0.70%
silicon 0.35%
chromium 3.25%
molybdenum 1.40%
vanadium 0.25%
Hope that info helps
Scott
 
Chuck Bybee said:
Crucible makes a blade steel called CPM 3V. It has close to the same charpy numbers as S7 ...
Click to expand...
From Crucible, CPM-3V impact toughness maxes at ~85 at 58 HRC and S7 at 125 at 57 HRC. Now CPM-1V is close to S7 in regards to impact toughness (~90%) with much higher wear resistance. As to this wear resistance improving edge holding, it depends on the type of cutting and the users tolerance for blunting.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
CPM-3V impact toughness maxes at ~85 at 58 HRC and S7 at 127 at 57 HRC.
Click to expand...
You were close with your numbers.

Rather than spewing numbers, here is information from Crucible, (they make 3V and S7):

3v-s.gif
 
Chuck Bybee said:
You were close with your numbers.
Click to expand...
I fixed a typo in the S7 charpy value from Crucible, it should be 125 not 127. Of course these are approximate values, it isn't like the blocks test at 125 ft.lbs on every run, so use these are rough guides only. It would be nice for crucible to list some measurement of variance. As well other people make S7 so the results for impact toughness, while still high, won't be the same if you check other reference works. ESS makes S7 for example and gives different impact toughness values, they change depending on size of block and notch type.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I fixed a typo in the S7 charpy value from Crucible, it should be 125 not 127. Of course these are approximate values, it isn't like the blocks test at 125 ft.lbs on every run, so use these are rough guides only. It would be nice for crucible to list some measurement of variance. As well other people make S7 so the results for impact toughness, while still high, won't be the same if you check other reference works. ESS makes S7 for example and gives different impact toughness values, they change depending on size of block and notch type.

-Cliff
Click to expand...
Hey Cliff why don't you be more specific for the people who don't understand the lingo of heat treating, tempering and toughness levels. You know like this:

Tempering temperature F, Hardness HRC , Toughness,
300 -59 -85
400 -57 -125
500 -55 -125
600 -54 -115
700 -53 -105
800 -53 -105
900 -52 -120
1000 -51 -150
1100 -47 -190
1200 -41 -
What this shows is the temp at which the hardened blade is tempered at, (two tempering cycles at two hours min. each) the hardness level achieved at the given temp and the level of toughness at each temp and hardness level. The above info is for S7.
Scott
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Hey Cliff why don't you be more specific for the people who don't understand the lingo of heat treating, tempering and toughness levels. You know like this:

Tempering temperature F, Hardness HRC , Toughness,
300 -59 -85
400 -57 -125
500 -55 -125
600 -54 -115
700 -53 -105
800 -53 -105
900 -52 -120
1000 -51 -150
1100 -47 -190
1200 -41 -
What this shows is the temp at which the hardened blade is tempered at, (two tempering cycles at two hours min. each) the hardness level achieved at the given temp and the level of toughness at each temp and hardness level.
Click to expand...
If someone didn't understand the lingo, how would the above information be of use because you didn't explain any of it. You just presented a table with a big pile of numbers which would leave such a person wondering what to make of it. There is no comparison to any other steel so it is likely meaningless to them. Are the range of impact toughness listed actually even big or small. There is no way to tell. Why are there so many different values, what is the benefit - again no commentary.

I posted the very specific details that I did to correct the misinformation of Chuck who claimed 3V was close to S7 in toughness when in fact compared at their peak values S7 is more than 50% tougher, that isn't really close. I also noted that Crucible does actually make a steel which is similar to the performance he listed for 3V which is 1V.

It was a posts addressing a specific claim and thus listed specific data to address it. In general Cashen has a nice page on steels giving their composition plus his perspective on use as cutting tools which would be very useful for someone who doesn't understand the lingo, and even for those that do. It includes S5 and S7 as well as a whole of other steels.

-Cliff
 
This is quoted from Crucible's page pertaining to S7. You're the "expert" why don't you explain it for us. It's pretty simple, temp at which to temper hardened S7, rockwell hardness from tempering at given temp. and ft. lbs. of toughness. The lower the rockwell the tougher the blade.
Scott
 
From my point of view, S5 is as the industry advertises - "a shock resistant tool steel." If I may extrapolate from the expereince with other steels used to make knives, the chemical makeup of S5 means that it could be similar in performance to 5160 and could potentially have a slight advantage over 5160 because of the modest molybdenum and vanadium content.

I use this comparison because a HECK OF A LOT of knifemakers use 5160 and make great knives from it. The edge holding isn't as good as 1095, O1 or 52100, but the compromise in carbon content and hardness gives you the value of toughness.

So yes, I can imagine a big, chopping, high-shock implement like a hatchet, axe or massive Bowie made from S5. Yes, a big cutting tool could be made from 01, 1095, 52100 would hold an edge longer and still be tough enough for the job with some careful and skilful heat treatment techniques, but S5 seems inherently tough already.

Thats my logic when approaching issues like this. My 2-cents worth. Jason.
 
Thanks Jason for that explanation in language we all can understand. I've never personally used S5 or S7 but from the data, it sounds like a good steel for as you said, larger fixed blades. I personally prefer 5160 as it is a very good steel for large knives.
Scott
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I posted the very specific details that I did to correct the misinformation of Chuck who claimed 3V was close to S7 in toughness when in fact compared at their peak values S7 is more than 50% tougher, that isn't really close.
Click to expand...
The charpy of 3V at HRC 58 = 85
The charpy of S7 at HRC 59 = 85

I think that is pretty close. :rolleyes:

Why didn't you compare S7 at HRC 47 which has a charpy value of 190? It is more than 90% tougher. Since you wrote that my comparison was misinformation, your post must also be misinformation. :footinmou
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If someone didn't understand the lingo, how would the above information be of use because you didn't explain any of it. You just presented a table with a big pile of numbers which would leave such a person wondering what to make of it. There is no comparison to any other steel so it is likely meaningless to them. Are the range of impact toughness listed actually even big or small. There is no way to tell. Why are there so many different values, what is the benefit - again no commentary.

I posted the very specific details that I did to correct the misinformation of Chuck who claimed 3V was close to S7 in toughness when in fact compared at their peak values S7 is more than 50% tougher, that isn't really close. I also noted that Crucible does actually make a steel which is similar to the performance he listed for 3V which is 1V.

It was a posts addressing a specific claim and thus listed specific data to address it. In general Cashen has a nice page on steels giving their composition plus his perspective on use as cutting tools which would be very useful for someone who doesn't understand the lingo, and even for those that do. It includes S5 and S7 as well as a whole of other steels.

-Cliff
Click to expand...
What's your point? :rolleyes: The chart explains the tempering of S7 pretty clearly. Why is it meaningless? Why do you always talk in circles? Why, Why Why Cliff do you always try to find fault in someones post? Why do we need to compare it to another steel? How many blades have you heat treated? What experience do you have with heat treating steel? S5 is the original steel questioned but S7 was also brought up. These numbers show the tempering temperature that gives a specific hardness level and toughness level for S7. HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND?
Scott
 
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