Optical sight for M4

That is a really good idea, to see where my natural line of sight is, handle vs flattop, I am hoping it is the flattop because the eo tech handle adapter is darn expensive!!
 
Make sure to post a few pics when you have your Smith finished...
 
WhitleyStu said:
If you choose optics with magnification that are mounted on the flat top the fixed front sight will appear as a blur in the bottom of the FOV.
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I've had a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm on a flat top with a standard front sight base since . . . some time in the mid to late 1990s. I never notice the front sight . . . unless I am specifically looking for it (which I never do since it serves no purpose).

I would not dissuade anyone from using magnified optics on a flat top because they might see their front sight post. It's a non-issue to almost everyone I've met or with whom I've communicated online.

Mounting optics on top of the carry handle creates more problems for most people than it can possibly solve. If you've adapted to it, fine, but most people will find it a bad compromise that costs much and gains little. The offset between bore line and line of sight gets increased to a ridiculous amount. People have hard enough time accounting for the standard offset at close ranges, and increasing the height of the optics just makes it harder.
 
rrg991981 said:
That is a really good idea, to see where my natural line of sight is, handle vs flattop, I am hoping it is the flattop because the eo tech handle adapter is darn expensive!!
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It will also depend on whether you want your iron sights in the lower third of the reticle (which seems to be the most popular lately since a few "gurus" advocate it), or if you want your iron sights and red dot to be aligned. The latter is called an "absolute co-witness," and the former is called a "lower one-third co-witness." I prefer the absolute co-witness.

If your rear sight is fixed, the lower one-third idea makes a lot of sense. If you can fold your rear sight down, then it's less of an issue (all of mine fold when I don't want them in the way).
 
rrg991981 said:
That's my plan, is there an issue with a fixed raised front site and a red dot site with a flat top upper?
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Not really, at least for most people. Once you get a little practice looking at the dot or looking at the threat/target with the dot sitting over where you want to hit, you won't notice your front sight post.

If it does prove to be a problem, you can have your front sight tower removed, and get it replaced with a lower profile gas block and a front sight that will fold down when you don't want or need it.
 
rhino said:
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Mounting optics on top of the carry handle creates more problems for most people than it can possibly solve. If you've adapted to it, fine, but most people will find it a bad compromise that costs much and gains little. The offset between bore line and line of sight gets increased to a ridiculous amount. People have hard enough time accounting for the standard offset at close ranges, and increasing the height of the optics just makes it harder.
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Optics have been mounted on carry handles for nearly four decades until flat tops became popular. Cost much and gains little? Costs nothing but the price of a bolt.
 
Thomason said:
Absintheur, do you know anything about the Israeli Trilux Illuminated Scope? I have heard the Israeli Special Forces uses this scope on their M4s. I have shipped a couple of pocket knives to some fellow knife knuts in Israel but don't really know any thing about Israeli scope quality or even if rrg991981 would be interested in something like that.
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I haven't ever used one, I do use a Reflex and know how well they do work. But for anything under 200 yards I prefer iron over optics in most cases. That goes on all of my rifles for the most part. I have a scope set-up for several of them but seldom use them. The only semi-auto rifle I have a scope as the dedicated sight on is my 300 Whisper. The rest I use iron and have a QD mount that I can add if needed.

I am a NRA certified Law Enforcement Instructor in rifle, pistol, and shotgun. Part of the course we have to demonstrate our ability to shoot and that included 4inch target at 200 yards using only iron sights, I felt it was easy. For ultra precision work a scope is nice but for fast at the closer ranges irons (especially peep sights) work very well.
 
I've used both the Eotech and the Aimpoint, and of the two I far and away preferred the Aimpoint. The Eotech had a larger "viewing screen", but the dot within the circle seemed to fill that up too much for me. I made faster shoot/ no shoot decisions with the Aimpoint. We had older Aimpoints 2000's with a 7 min dot for our MP-5's, and Comp M3's with a 2 min dot on our M-4's. I always preferred mine mounted as far forward as possible. I actually left the carry handle on my flat top and used a "gooseneck" extender for the extra distance.
The trick to being fast with a red dot is to keep both eyes open, visually acquire your target, and then swing the dot into your field of view. Take a last moment to finalize your point of aim, and then squeeeeeeze. If you want to "force" yourself to keep both eyes open, close the front lens cover or just tape over the far end of the site. You can still see the dot, but nothing else if you close the off eye.

I've also tried a low power scope, 3X or so, with Docter red dot site on top of that. It was handy, but very tall. I was always wackin' the Docter site on stuff, and was always nervous the zero would wander. It never failed me, but I just got tired of worrying about it and went back to the Comp M3. When I know I'm going to be looking a little farther down range I will swap in an ACOG and then re-zero. Despite what the flat top people say, you almost ALWAYS need to re-zero.
 
rhino said:
I've had a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm on a flat top with a standard front sight base since . . . some time in the mid to late 1990s. I never notice the front sight . . . unless I am specifically looking for it (which I never do since it serves no purpose).

I would not dissuade anyone from using magnified optics on a flat top because they might see their front sight post. It's a non-issue to almost everyone I've met or with whom I've communicated online.

Mounting optics on top of the carry handle creates more problems for most people than it can possibly solve. If you've adapted to it, fine, but most people will find it a bad compromise that costs much and gains little. The offset between bore line and line of sight gets increased to a ridiculous amount. People have hard enough time accounting for the standard offset at close ranges, and increasing the height of the optics just makes it harder.
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FWIW if ya want optics on an A2 put a 4 rail HG on it and put the optics above the bbl on the handguard vs on the handguard itself, i tried all kinds of stuff to mount optics on a carry handle and they all sucked imho. the optics on the HG mounted back towards the handle co-witnessed works great, i am happy with my M4 set up that way w/a eotech & it also works great with a aimpoint.

why dont i like it mounted on the handle?

*the optics stick way up and ya have to contort your head up to get a site picture, mostly, but also.......

*ya cant co-witness the irons, which i like to do.
 

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a better pic of my A2..........
 

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WhitleyStu said:
Optics have been mounted on carry handles for nearly four decades until flat tops became popular. Cost much and gains little? Costs nothing but the price of a bolt.
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The use of the carbine specifically at 25 yard and less (i.e. the "urban carbine") is a relatively new thing (like the last 10-15 years). That movement has emphasized some things that don't matter when you're shooting at 100+ yards, like the physical offset between the line of sight and the boreline. Being able to compensate for that at close ranges (like less than 15 yards) is of vital importance when a precision shot is necessary. Putting optics on top of the carry handle makes a challenge into a losing battle for most people.

If you're sitting at a bench poking holes in paper at 100, 200, 300 yards, then it wouldn't matter to you. If you're trying to hit the occular window of someone holding a knife to your kid's throat across your living room, it's going to make a big difference.
 
SIFU1A said:
FWIW if ya want optics on an A2 put a 4 rail HG on it and put the optics above the bbl on the handguard vs on the handguard itself, i tried all kinds of stuff to mount optics on a carry handle and they all sucked imho. the optics on the HG mounted back towards the handle co-witnessed works great, i am happy with my M4 set up that way w/a eotech & it also works great with a aimpoint.
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That's works pretty well, especially if you use a freefloating handguard. And I agree it's better than cantilever/"gooseneck" mounts from the carry handle. I've tried the latter, and it works okay with a really good mount (like the Bennie Cooley adjustable), but the sight picture with the irons sucks.

For those who are thinking of how do it cheap, don't try to do this with a cheapo plastic railed handguard. Those are okay for lights and foregrips, but you won't be able to maintain a zero with your red dot (unless you get really lucky and you never subject your rifle to any kind of abuse).
 
yeah the cheap way isnt the best lol, i've tried that.

i have a surefire railed HG on my tac carbine and a samson railed on my lightweight sporter & to be honest i prefer the samson, it was ~ $75 cheaper too, & it holds zero just fine which a lot of folks said it wouldnt.
 
Good, solid choices.

If you want a suggestion for zeroing the iron sights and red dot, check out Santose Improved Battlesight Zero. It's essentially zeroing at 50 yards, so then your trajectory will be the flattest over the widest range, and your second zero will be at about 200 meters (give or take, depending on your rifle and ammo combination). You'll be about 1.125 inches low at 25 yards, and just over an inch high at 100 yards, so for most shots from 15 yards to 250 yards you don't have to worry about holdovers. It's the best way to go unless you know you'll be shooting at a specific distance all the time, then you'd zero for that.
 
agreed, when sited in right ya really dont need any holdover until the ranges get really long (ie +300 yards).

suprisingly to me an AKM in 7.62X39 is a LOT flatter shooting than i had imagined it would be, again very little holdover needed when sited in correctly until ~ 300 yds, stuff on the 'net would have ya believe it has a rainbow trajectory, not the case at all lol.
 
rhino said:
Good, solid choices.

If you want a suggestion for zeroing the iron sights and red dot, check out Santose Improved Battlesight Zero. It's essentially zeroing at 50 yards, so then your trajectory will be the flattest over the widest range, and your second zero will be at about 200 meters (give or take, depending on your rifle and ammo combination). You'll be about 1.125 inches low at 25 yards, and just over an inch high at 100 yards, so for most shots from 15 yards to 250 yards you don't have to worry about holdovers. It's the best way to go unless you know you'll be shooting at a specific distance all the time, then you'd zero for that.
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One point on the 25 yard urban rifle vs. the improved battle sight zero which has been around for along time under different names.

The M16/M4 are zeroed at 25 meters, the POA/POI is dead on at 25 meters and 300 meters. For anything in the middle you just aim a little low. For over 300 meters you have BDC built into the rear sight. For anything under 25 meters you can get real fast and accurate just referencing the front sight only. I just can’t see pitching that out the window for a system that has been advocated before for use buy hunters who wouldn’t take the time to learn the gear. I also have trouble with the fact that this negates the rear BDC, when we are at a time when range is an issue. If 100 yards was all our guys were shooting they wouldn’t be bringing back M14s and the designated marksman concept for the Army.

I shot lots of round with iron sights and top mounted Aim points before there was an M4 and didn’t see any practical difference in accuracy.
 
My experience with the optical/holographic sights is limited; but as I indicated in my recent post our rifles are issued with the dual-aperture flip "peep" sight and the EOTech optical sight.
I was impressed with the Eotech; it appears to be sturdy and well-protected, provides an excellent sight picture, and has a nicely-adjustable brightness feature.

We spent the first couple of hours zeroing the two sights for the same impact area, and went with the above-mentioned 50-yard zero.
 
Thats great advice I will definately follow that zero procedure, I will be picking up my rifle tomorrow, and I got my range ammo today, 1000 rds of sellier and belloit 55gr and as I was filling my ammo can, i came to the realization the .223 is a very small light round, I havnt shot much .223 in recent years and I always remember it being a bigger round, when you put 1000 of them in a .50cal ammo can they look so tiny!
 
practical accuracy w/a handle mounted scope is great, its when ya have to site fast that they lose out imho, due to the contortion'ing ya have to put your head and neck thru to get a site pic.

but if ya have plenty of time to aim and such they are fine.

imho its a hard decision between the aimpoint & the eotech, i have both, and like both, imho the batt life and durability is aimpoints strong points and fast easy aiming is eotchs.

but the eotech is plenty stout too, and ya can aim poretty fast w/a aimpoint, if i could have but 1 it would be a hard choice, i suppose it would all boil down to what i wanted to do w/the rifle, if it was strictly an entry type weapon and quick fast accurate shots are needed, i would go eotech, for most everything else, aimpoint.
 
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