Orange oil for cleaning - khuks etc

ddean

ddean

Joined
Mar 26, 2002
Messages
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[Corrected spelling of link]

Any particular orange oil cleaners you have found excellent?

Since orange oil products were recently recommended for me to try
for cleaning an antique khukuri, I have been looking around
for a good product locally.
Many cleaners carry 'orange' in the label, but is it mostly hype?
Anyway, I found something on the shelf that seems to be -mostly-
orange oil, to be diluted for use.
Plan to get & try it.

www.tkoorange.com
"Q:_ What exactly is Orange TKO?_ Tell me how it is made.
A:_ Orange TKO is an emulsifier made from the peel of the orange._ D'limonene is the active ingredient that gives citrus cleaners the punch._ Through a double distillation process, d'limonene is separated from the orange oil, removing the acidity, leaving Orange TKO with a neutral pH._ This double distillation process preserves the organic integrity of Orange TKO._ Orange TKO is not corrosive, and leaves no residue._ Two environmentally friendly (EPA approved) surfactants are added to allow d'limonene to blend with water._ Surfactants are also wetting agents, which gives TKO more cleaning strength.

Q:_ If there are no synthetic chemicals in TKO, what IS in it?
A:_ Orange TKO contains d'limonene, surfactants, and oxygen has been added._ There are no petroleum distillates or other synthetic chemicals._ It is 100% natural."
 
What does "Orange TKO" cost? I'd be suspicious of the wallet taking a punch.

"D'Limonene"??? somebody doesn't know what they're selling.

This naturally occuring terpene is a major constituent of citrus rind oils and also occurs in lemon-grass which is often a source for this substance. The material exists in "right and left hand" versions (enantiomers for those who know some chemistry, for others, three-dimensional mirror images as far as actual structure).

The form that occurs in nature is dextro-rotatory, meaning that it rotates plane-polarized light to the right. D-Limonene. Also known as (R)-(+)-Limonene, where the R denotes the actual geometry of the mirror image part, and the + denotes the rotation of plane polarized light. [The R, +, D follow conventions of rigorous descriptive nomenclature).

Other names for this substance are:

(+)-p-Mentha-1,8-diene

[(R)-(+)-4-Isoprenyl-1-methylcyclohexene

The last name fully describes the structure according to strict nomencalure rules--the others are sorta like common or "trivial" or "trade" names.

The other "hand" is L-Limonene or (S)-(-)-Limonene.
The other synomyms all apply as above.

"Dipenetene" or (+/-)-Limonene or p-Mentha-1,8-diene refer to an equal mixture of both "hands". Hence the designations (+/-) or lack of any added designation--a 1/1 mixture cancels out rotation of polarized light. This 1/1 mixture should be just fine for cleaning purposes, even though it is a synthetic product and not "natural".

Limonene is essentially a biodegradable hydrocarbon solvent. It boils at about 175 deg C. 10 carbons, 16 hydrogens. The pure stuff is flammable. It is not soap. That is why the surfactants need to be added to dissove it in water.

"Oxygen" added? No clue what this means unless some hydro-peroxide derivative (maybe t-butyl hydroperoxide??) has been added for "whitening"/bleaching power--Don't know of many that occur in nature though. Most would also attack the limonene at the very points (of unsaturation) that make it biodgradable.

Anyway, don't know how much Limonene is in their concoction, it must have a lot of water in it.

Old chemical catalog: 1996 prices, but

(R)-(+)-Limonene, 97% 500 ml $25.50
(S)-(-)-Limonene, 97% 250 g $40.40
"Dipentene", Tech grade (usually >85%) 500 ml $10.50 or 2.5 L $32.00

You might find "citrus solvent" like this:
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/citrus.html
the best way to go, particularly if water solubility isn't the most important thing. It's going basically be D-Limonene. If the possibility of it being slightly acidic is a problem (for cleaning??) gently shake it with a strong solution of baking soda, let the phases separate , and decant the limonene floating on top. Try it on a small ammount first--If no gas evolves there was not any acid for the baking soda to neutralize to start with.

The addition of some dish soap or detergent will probably allow some of the citrus solvent to get into water if desired. The water-based citrus-oil products can't contain that much of the stuff even with added surfactants, IMO.

If it doesn't need to be water based, try a formulation for furniature which is orange or lemon oil formulated with petroleum spirits. Howards brand orange oil fit's this description as far as I can tell.


Apologies for verbosity, edited for typos.
 
OK, apologies for chemistry too.

ddean started it.

may as well be correct if it's here?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised of a quart or two of the citrus solvent mixed up to a tanker truck of "Orange TKO".

EDIT: OK I was wrong:footinmou--now that I got the link to work, (tokoorange) and read the MSDS, it appears that "orange TKO" concentrate is about 90% orange oil (and from the color, probably tech. grade like the citrus solvent...Limonine is colorless).

So the question is, do the added surfactants and "oxygen" (whatever that means) make it worth twice the price of the citrus solvent which is 100% orange oil? BTW, I think that either will have to be shipped by ground due to flamability.
 
Kid says to grandmother, "I know how to spell 'banana'."

"Tell me," says grandma.

"B-A-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-A...,
but, I kinda don't know when to stop."
 
OK I get the point (at least once).

Anyway, I'm trying a little experiment for you--
I'm gonna let a bit of some of my orange oil/petroleum spirits dry overnight or until I smell hardly any petroleum distillates. Hopefully they are the lower boiling kind. Then I'll see how it emulsifies in water. Maybe add a bit of soap if needed, I'm thinking Woolite since it's supposed to be very mild.

If this works I'd go for the citrus solvent from my link and concoct your own stuff. Cheaper, and you can use the pure stuff for regular solvent uses too.

The main point is IMO some of the orange oil stuff IS hype.

because it comes from citrus fruits
because it's not volatile, so less vapor

Fact remains it is a hydrocarbon and similar to many industrial solvents and gasoline.

Pine oil (active stuff in pine-sol) and turpentine aren't much different either.

It does have the ability to slightly dissolve in water, and make a semi-stable emulsion. Some related lower boiling solvents have given me fits by making emulsions when doing extractions with water. Even my stuff with the petroleum spirits did that, just didn't last very long (like vinegar/oil salad dressing). Should do better without the petroleum spirits. Hopefully we'll see what happens with less petroleum spirits.

And the biodegradability is relative-- leave an orange peel out in the yard and see how long it takes to rot compared to other stuff. A big spill of orange oil or vegetatable oil for that matter isn't going to go away fast.

If you have to go with aqueous, how about the old Murphy's soap?

AACK! another typo in one of my previous posts...
 
Originally posted by firkin .......
"D'Limonene"???
Click to expand...
Whoever typed the web page must have thought it was a French contraction.

Thanks for the chem details; I understand 95% of it.
& I'm sure I'll be referring to it again.
And thanks for the link.
I'd been looking for the 100% and was about to give up.
Appreciate it.
And that page tells me I can use it as a safer alternative solvent.

Oxygen???
Maybe they shake up the bottle before it leaves the factory.
:p
 
A search for "citrus solvent" will turn up lots of suppliers--problem will be sorting through to find the ones that will sell to individuals at a reasonable price. The milk paint people don't seem too bad on the price. It should be possible to purchase purer, colorless Limonene from a chemical supply house if there are conservation concerns for antiques.

Antything you want to know about citrus oil products can probably be found here...pretty interesting. I'm perusing it myself. Of course, they may be a little biased.;)

http://www.floridachemical.com/

Dunno if they will bother to send (or sell) samples to individuals--the offer is oviously intended for potential manufacturers. Many suggested formulations on the site.

EDIT: Or search for "D-limonene"

Looks like this place will sell you a gallon for $26.50 + whatever Fed-X wants for shipping.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/dlimonene.htm
 
Also maybe worth noting--

Health: d-Limonene is moderately to slightly toxic. A lethal dose for an infant is roughly one teaspoon to three tablespoons, for children it is two teaspoons to one-half cup, and for adults it is two tablespoons to two cups. The most important short-term toxicity concern for d-limonene is local skin irritation, including painful rashes lasting several days in both humans and animals. Current thinking is that d-limonene is not carcinogenic to humans. It has actually been found to prevent and even be therapeutic against several cancers, including breast cancer in animals. It is currently being tested for similar effects on humans.

YSMV (your skin may vary)

http://www.greenconsumer.cc/managers/limonene.html

Hmmm, sounds like great stuff to sell in capsules at the health food store, or to add to shampoo, and all the other wacky stuff I see that they do with it. ;) Of course, highly refined clove and cinnamon oil are a bit irritating also.

Also saw that oxidation products (including air-oxidation) are thought to be powerful sensitizers for some people. Some people claimed that the use of D-Limonine in termite extermination rendered their houses unihabitable. Kinda makes ya wonder about that "oxygen" additive.

Didn't realize that it was such a fad molecule. :rolleyes:
 
Couldn't be THAT...even though it's natural, most everyone knows that it is fatal to breath much of the stuff.
 
Originally posted by firkin ......Couldn't be THAT...even though it's natural, most everyone knows that it is fatal to breath much of the stuff.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but, like Carbon Di-Oxide, it's heavier than air and tends to pool in low spots.
 
What would be a good Surfactants/Emulsifiers to use for mixing D-Limonene with water?

Thanks
 
dang...always makes my heart skip a beat when somebody digs up an old thread containing one of Bill's posts...


sorry, I have no answer to your question...
 
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