Oso grande Knife and Tool Restocking Charge

I don't know Oso Grande or the people who run it from a hole in the ground. I may have met them at a show, but honestly I can't remember. And no, they don't support the forums, and yes, they are competitors with 1SKS, so really, I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

I'm just offering my two cents from my point of view in the knife business. No more.

The knife industry isn't like the Book industry, which I commonly see it compared to. Knife sellers aren't making 400% profit on 99% of the items they sell. Discounters, like I said before, are lucky to get by on 20-25%. When you factor in all the costs associated with doing business, eating those credit card fees can completely wipe out any profit from a return.

If you were paying full bore retail for a book, yes, I could understand your frustration. Same with a flashlight, or a pair of gloves, or an anorak from Eddie Bauer. But on a knife, sorry, it's just not the same, especially when you buy from a discounter.

If you can't understand this, I'm sorry. I don't know how else to explain it.

Kevin
 
Spark has intoned and given his two cents worth twice. This rarely happens. This tells me i’m skating on thin ice. In this forum-world, all he needs to do is hit a key, click a mouse, and I’m history. Since I love the forum, and it’s spririted and lively discussion of knives, I’d just as soon avoid that.

There is no freedom of speech in a private forum; freedoms end when your viewpoints hits the ears of the forum owner and they deem it objectionable.
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I've been around this forum longer than Spark has owned it and, in all that time, I can not remember a single case where Spark banned someone for disagreeing with him. And there have been many cases of folks disagreeing with him in much more vocal and less civil ways than you have.

Spark is a businessman and he is concerned about what his customers and potential customers think. I'm certain that as he considers the policies and practices at 1SKS, he will consider what you've said. Keep in mind, though, that he has to balance what his customers want with what his business requires.

Obviously, customers would like prices 90% below retail, free overnight shipping, 90 days same as cash, and free returns. A knife retailer who offered that would sell a lot of knives. And he would quickly go out of business doing it. It's a balance.
 
Boy...This guy is extreme! With people he does not know, he “sees” collusion and attacks integrity.

I could see Boink being a “conspirator theorist.” ;)

Restocking fees? I think we’re all in agreement that as a consumer, we’d all love to never be assessed one (but that’s just not realistic). But for me, if it was part of my purchasing agreement... (oh, this was already covered, sorry!).

It might be that customers of Oso Grande abused the good graces of a previous, more liberal, return policy (I’m just hypothesizing here) and a new, more restrictive, return policy (including the “evil” 20% restocking fee) was required to 1) stay fiscally in business and 2) have this policy as a deterrent to those “look and return” customers who “rent” knives for a couple weeks.

I can tell you from personal experience that the process of returning a knife to stock as “new” is laborious. Though a customer says, “I just opened the box, looked at the knife, and put it back in,” a heavy burden rests on the retailer (or for me, the manufacturer). That burden is to completely assure that the knife is in fact in “new, resalable condition.” Let me explain what members of my staff (and ultimately me...’cuz that where the buck stops here) will go through. First, the packaging is given a general look-over. Does it look like it had been through more than just being opened and shut? Did the customer take care to repackage it just in the manner in that they received it? The entire knife is inspected. All fingerprints are wiped off (there are usually many). Every square inch of the knife surface is inspected for scratches. Every fraction of an inch of the cutting surface is scrutinized to see if it had been used even once for cutting or been sharpened. The tip is inspected for possibly being dropped. Other things are looked at, such as evidence of carry (pocket lint in the liners). All this is done for only one reason: The next purchaser of this knife expects this knife to be brand new! If not, the integrity of the retailer (or in my case, the manufacturer) comes in question. Yes, accidents happen and things are overlooked, but this very laborious process is mandatory when “who-knows-who” has handled the knife in “who-knows-what” circumstances. This obviously is not an inexpensive process.

Let me throw in here that I don’t at all know Oso Grande! I had to do an internet search to find their website. I don’t know their owners. I have no idea if they sell SOG’s knives (they probably do) or if they buy directly from us. Regarding Spark and 1SKS, I’ve met Kevin once for about 2 minutes (at SHOT Show 2002). I’ve talked to him once or twice on the phone for couple minutes and corresponded via email with maybe a couple dozen times or so on pretty mundane issues. I can say from my side that there is no back-channel “buddy” system going on here with greased palms where we’re looking out for each other’s back. No secret handshakes in dark rooms dictate who gets “screwed.” Only an overactive mind of a conspiracy theorist in action! :rolleyes:

Strange thread.
 
Boink, Thanks for giving me a laugh :D. Sometimes life would be a lot easier, and things would flow a lot smoother if people in general would just learn to admit when they are wrong, or to try and see things from both sides of the fence. There are too many people that just know how it is, and there is nothing that can be done to change their minds. Believe me, I deal with them every day! Boink, you expressed your opinion, others expressed theirs, What's the problem??? Why do you think you will get banned? This has nothing to do about "Free Speach" on a privately owned forum. In my view, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and nothing more.
 
This is a great thread!

Some of you will now better understand why many of the knives we sell at A. G. Russell Knives, Inc. cost a few dollars more. It also explains why our GUARANTEE is so popular.

http://agrussell.com/guarantee.html

When you insist on the lowest possible price you will find that there are other prices built in and choices you make. If you cannot bother to read the fine print, then you need to buy where there is no fine print.

all the best,

A. G.
 
Wow, A.G. Russell - how cool is that. I fondly remember lusting after a Sting 1A at the mall knife store back in junior high - great memories.

Love your catalog too - I read it cover to cover as soon as it arrives! Heck, now I might have to buy something...:D
 
I am sure that Oso Grande considered the possible ramifications of the return policy that they implemented. They have to live with the decision that they made.

You have the choice to not purchase anything from them. You should not however complain about them implementing a rule that they have clearly stated.

Having been in retail for over 30 years, I am in agreement that a company should be flexible with their return policies and not have them written in stone. There should always be room for compromise.

Boink, you should not question the ethics of someone just because they disagree with you. It makes you look bad.
 
You know, I never cease to be amused by folks who bring up an issue -- even an issue in which they are making a good point -- but present the issue in unreasonably coarse and abrasive terms, and then wonder why they get little sympathy. These are the same guys who can't understand anyone else's point of view, they're always right, and how they feel is more important than anyone else's considerations.

While I firmly agree with everyone that when a business has a posted policy, especially a policy that's rooted in significant real business expense (as Spark and others have convinced me is the case here), a customer is being unreasonable in complaining about being held to that policy.

On the other hand, I'd never knowingly buy a knife that I didn't know I wanted, from an outfit that charges 20% restocking fees, if I could get the same item at a similar price from an outfit that has at least as good a reputation and no restocking fees. And frankly, I'd be surprised if we couldn't go through the exercise and find price matches from sellers who have as good a name as Oso Grande.

Boink made a mistake that is his fault completely, but his post did remind me of something: I haven't been reading return policies carefully, but I will from now on, lest I "pull a Boink".

Joe
 
Right on A.G., you da King. And to answer the question, no I have never been socked with the return fine. Only things knife wise I will get that are non-refundable is sharpening equipment. For mail order/net orders I beleive a reasonaable return is a must.
 
Boink,

This thread sort of reminds me of the "lady" who buys a dress at Sears, JCPenneys, etc., and returns it after wearing it a couple times, saying that she changed her mind, and doesn't want it anymore, eventho she knew what she was buying. In the future, please READ ALL of the terms of a purchase, and understand them BEFORE turning-over your hard-earned money, or credit-card numbers.

Being that I am VERY FAR from being wealthy, I DO feel sorry that you are losing your $80 to the re-stocking fee (IF you do decide to return the knives), but them's the "rules" that you "agreed to", by making the purchase in the first place. Maybe you can look-over what you bought, and learn to like what you have, and not lose any money over this?.
 
Silvio making like Pacino - "Now that I'm out --- They pull me back in! "

--- Mr. Talmadge, please extract any course, abrasive terms you've perceived I've written and display it for me.

--- Ron - I apologize for the "Liberal" comment.

--- Spark - Glad you didn't zap me. Thanks for a great knife forum.

Admittedly, a contentious issue certainly livens things up a bit. Although I'd warn anyone from entering a bar with me; we'd all end up pummeled. (I sure know how to pick 'em, do I?) ;) --- but seriously folks --

Lest anyone get the wrong idea - I'm the type of guy that, in the past on this forum, advocates knife buyers to support their local knife shops, even if the knives cost a little more. They're usually mom and pop businesses that, around here, have a tough time surviving. Mine is quite a few miles away and not all that well-stocked.

Some folks visit the stores, make the owners spend a lot of time with them, then go out and buy knives on the internet. To me, this is stealing someone's time.

As far as internet buying goes, the rare times I have had to return knife merchandise, I wound up buying a hell of a lot more merchandise from the same dealer. And continue to do so. One's that go for the money grab lose out on any and all future dollars of mine. And when I have done so, I completely respect the merchandise, barely touch it and keep it prisitine, set it up in a box more sturdy than the way it came, return it by Fed Ex and return it within a day or so of receipt. So, I do my bit in as nice a way as possible.

Now, back down off the soapbox.

I get the feeling from almost all the posts that just returning merchandise is the cardinal sin; notwithstanding extenuating circumstances.

All these posts, yet no one's asked:

"How was the personal interaction on prior purchases and on the latest one?"

"What was your rationale for making the return?"

"What was the condition of the merchandise as received?"
 
It seems that if your last questions were in any way pertinent to the discussion, you would have already mentioned them. Apparently, they weren't pertinent to the return. If they were, you should have provided pertinent data up front.

As it is, the appearance is that of trying to change your story.

Phil
 
Like I said above - if the product is defective, there shouldn't be a restocking charge at all. If you just changed your mind, well... that's another matter.

Anyhow, perhaps if you feel there were mitigating circumstances, you should have explained them further initially...

Kevin
 
Originally posted by Boink

As far as internet buying goes, the rare times I have had to return knife merchandise, I wound up buying a hell of a lot more merchandise from the same dealer. And continue to do so. One's that go for the money grab lose out on any and all future dollars of mine.
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That is the best way that you have to fight back in this situation.

It is understandable that you are upset about having to pay an $80.00 restocking fee. It would have been nice if Oso Grande had been willing to work with you and had been able to work out a compromise that would have made both of you happy. It is always better to have something like this end in a win win situation.

The reason that I did not ask any of those questions that you queried in your last post was that I made some assumptions. I assumed that if you had had previous dealings with Oso Grande they must have gone ok because you had not stated that you had bad experiences with them in the past. I felt that you probably returned the knife because you were not satisfied with it, because if there had been something mechanically wrong with the knife or it had been damaged, you would have told us that at the beginning. It was also my take on the situation that you would have sent the knife back in the same condition you received it. If you had in some way damaged or used the knife and were complaining about being charged a restocking fee I would have considered you to be an idiot and not bothered responding to the thread at all.
 
I guess what really got me blown away was that I believed there was always good dealings. Always nice, professional talk as you’d expect. Even in disagreement, it’s a “just the facts, mam” kind of way. Nothing heated, no voices raised.

My first purchase was great. No problems. My second purchase was a little problematic.

This is one of the reasons it wasn’t noted in the beginning - this is gonna be wordy. Can’t avoid it. Also, it gets into details that discuss the plusses and minusses of knives some folks love, so it’ll run the risk of even more flaming that what’s gone on. And also, it’s a good thing to view it not as someone who knows all about knives, but is learning. Maybe most of you’ve been exposed to tons of knives and could picture them clearly, state the specs and probably have handled all of them. Well - some of us have only seen some pictures and snazzy descriptions, maybe a good word or two from sastisfied forum members, so the plunge it taken to check the knife out on that information alone.

Here’s the roll call of what was bought and what happened: I went and bought three knives at one time.

Spyderco Endura - Bought this item to go with one I bought from the brick and mortar store I mentioned about that’s a long ways from home. It arrived without the Boyle dent. I liked the Boyle dent. I questioned the seller about this and the response was, “This is what we are receiving from Spyderco.”

I assumed that all new Enduras coming from Spyderco had the Boyle dent. This knife I did not even remove from the clear inner wrapping; it went back.

Large CRKT M-16 Carbon Fiber - Some of us may remember an old TK issue discussing the CRKT M-16 series in general. It stated at the end of the article that the single edge chisel grind exhibited a chipping problem. A sidebar with editor’s note indicated that a single edge chisel grind is being discontinued, so that chipping will no longer be a problem.

People like the knife, and now I’m looking at CRKT advertisements where the knife is actually maybe 3/4” long in the picture - not enough for details, but enough to say, “Cool knife.” I also have some carbon fiber knives already and think it’s nice, so I order the knife noted.

I open it up and check it out. It’s got that single edge chisel grind that the article said they’re not producing anymore. I look further. The carbon fiber pattern is nothing like any other carbon fiber handled knife I own. This is not in a good way. And the finishing “around the edges” is quite rough. I look further - and consider the liner lock to be exceptionally flimsy, imho. The liner is one one side only. There’s also something to be said about simply translating a successful knife design into other materials - I found that the carbon fiber handle in the same form factor as, say, machined aluminum, made for a knife that I felt to be “blade heavy.”. So, - the grind killed it for me right off the bat. The other cosmetic or quality construction stuff sealed the deal.

This I described to the seller, who listened.

Spyderco Bob Lum Tanto; Titanium Handle - The Lum. Ahh - yes, the Lum! The seller has one! A very rare knife, indeed. That knife was to be the crown jewel of the whole purchase!

I open the box and, what can I say? How do I characterize this best - not mint. Not close to mint. I’m thinking, if I turned around and sold the knife for half price to a fellow forumite; they’d b*tch and moan about how it looks (don’t we all expect perfection on our secondary market purchases?)

So, I don’t want to pay full price for what, in order to have any value at all in later years, needs to be mint. This was very disconcerting. I told this to the seller, who says he did not look at the knife when it went out; I requested he check it out when it arrives back to see if he concurs.

Wrap up was, the seller indicated I’d be socked with the 20% charge for the knife return. I responded that I had what I beleive to be reasonable reasons for returning. I said at the very least check out the Lum, which was definitley handled quite a bit in my view.

Well - got socked with the 20%. Called later and asked if it can go toward a new knife, say, a Strider AR, which would gobble up that and then some. Seller said “no.” I asked about the Bob Lum, maintaining that it was not in good condition and that I should be returned my 20% for that item at least.

The response was, “We only sell new knives.”

Nice and simple answer, I’m thinking. How does one respond to that? I said, “the 20% value of the Lum is not worth arguing over.”

I said, “thank you - too bad you’re holding on to what I think is blood money” and then hung up.
 
There is absolutely nothing in your last post that you should be flamed for and it defintely gives me a better idea as to why you are so upset.

In my opinion this was handled poorly by Oso Grande. They should have been much more willing to work with you on this.

What the person at Oso Grande may have been thinking is that if you returned all three of these knives, you would probably do the same with the Strider AR and they used the restocking fee to tell you that they would prefer that you not order any more knives from them in the future. Of course this is just conjecture on my part.
 
Well there you go. Same situation, different style of posting, and now I sympathize with you a whole lot more. Getting knives that are badly finished, or doesn't seem new, or missing features that have been on all new knives for like a year now, would be beyond disappointing. Posted policy or not, from your description above, those guys should have worked with you.

Joe
 
Very interesting thread indeed. I'm sure that Spark, like me, can tell you stories about people who abuse returns. I'm not suggesting Boink did this, though. I just bring it up to offer more information from the other side of the web server.

I remember one customer who liked to look at knives and play with them. He didn't like to actually buy them. Apparently, the two way shipping was worth it to him to shop in his living room without buying anything and since we don't charge a restocking fee, he kept doing it. I remember checking out his file and discovering he had ordered and returned $2700 worth of knives - 100% of what we had shipped him until that point. The reason I happened to check the file was that he filed a chargeback on his credit card on the last order without returning the merchandise, claiming he didn't receive it. He didn't contact us at all. He just bullied us through the credit card processor. Perhaps it was lost in shipment. I'll never really know. Luckily for us it happened or we might still be shipping things to the guy. We would normally "fire" an abusive customer way before that point. He just slipped through the cracks.

So there is such a thing as being a good and fair customer just like being a good and fair dealer. It works both ways. I think that's been brought out pretty well in this thread. I'm not suggesting anybody in this is a bad and unfair customer. But the guy I described above sure was and he is only one of hundreds we have encountered.

Spark's comments on the cost of returns is on the money. Returns are very expensive. Luckily they are such a small percentage of our total volume that we write it off. Guys like the one I mentioned above, though, can really motivate someone to introduce a restocking fee policy. I almost did because of him. Perhaps the same guy did to Oso Grande what he did to us. Could be something like that motivated the policy in the first place. It really does work both ways.
 
I just wanted to chime in on this one.


I have a hard time understanding the type of people that Knife Outlet described. Don't get me wrong. I am sure they exsist. But I have to honestly say, I have not gone one week without ordering something online for several years. I actually prefer ordering online, Not only for the price diffrence you'll find and a better selection, But it also gives me something to look forward to in the mail instead of the ussual bills. In all my years of shopping online and the what must be thousands of purchases by now, I have NEVER returned a single item. NEVER. And for someone to do this all the time is really wierd to me. So I guess to answer the original question, No I have never encountered a Restock fee. :cool:
 
From the postings I have read, this is what I have learned:

Some knife sites sell at the slimmest possible margin. In order to protect their interests in general and also against the occasional wierdo buyer, is to impose an onerous restock charge.

So, the buyer of knives from these sites must know EXACTLY what it is they want, and pretty much may have even handled the knife before, in order to be happy with the purchase. Because if it’s the low numbers you want to enjoy besides the knife, then this is the way to go in the buying.

Due to what happened in my case, and also even putting it in words, has gotten me feeling alienated. What I believe happened is that “gettin’ paid” took precedence over making and keeping a customer happy. And the 20% restock fee was just the ticket to enforce this.

In oral lanquage, as well as written, things can have a subtext - a hidden meaning or “what we’re really saying is ...” kind of thing.

When I mentioned about the Endura and Boyle dent, the response of “That’s what we are getting from Spyderco” in my mind really meant, “if you think I’m going to take that thing back and ship you a replacement, while you may even expect me to pay shipping both ways, ain’t gonna happen.” “You didn’t expressly ask for the Boyle dent and I, the professional knife seller, didn’t think to ask you.” “Either way, I’m still making money off you.”

When I mentioned my complaints or fears related to the CRKT M-16, the seller just listened. In my mind, it was more like, “This things crumbling before my very ears. I’ll just shut up and see what else is wrong.”

When I mentioned about the Bob Lum, I could almost “hear” this going on: “I know you wanted the Lum. Yeah, we had one left. One that’s been here for so long in a display case and handled by so many folks I daren’t even speculate.” “What?! You want perfection? I sent this to you to see what will stick and, since it didn’t, I’ll merely invoke the 20% clause and then be done with you.”

So, this is probably what really set me off. I felt unfairly “maligned” in this sale. It’s a complicated mess, for sure. Nothing here is cut and dry. But I have learned to steer away from those who impose 20% until I know exactly what it is I want and have also had some experience with the knife.
 
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