Osprey K&T Comparison photos

Discussion in 'Osprey Knife & Tool' started by FeralGentleman, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. M4Super90

    M4Super90 Biochemical Superfreak Gold Member

    Aug 26, 2008
    I was always told a matanza usually involved the slaughtering of a pig just before winter to provide the pueblo with a bunch of lard, meat, blood, and all the other great stuff a whole hog provides. The emphasis was on the pig since the Moorish rulers of the Spanish ancestors and the Jews they always despised couldn't eat pig. I personally like the Mexican version of a matanza, which seems more like the northwest tradition of potlaches, where you compete with each other to see who can throw the biggest feast and treat others the best. IMHO, which leads to some great times with great friends....we might need one of those in the Hill Country. :D
     
  2. Osprey Knife & Tool

    Osprey Knife & Tool Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 4, 2014
    This is very interesting, I believe I have seen and heard of something like this before but never had the pleasure of participating. I will have to read up on this more I find these kinds of thing fascinating. Thank you for enlightening me guy's
     
  3. varga49

    varga49 Gold Member Gold Member

    May 1, 2016
    Nice to have more of the story, which I am familiar with regarding the Spanish/ Moor influence. Of the four I participated in it was two hogs and two young rams which needed culling from the herd of Churro. Pork is my favorite to be certain though the proper slaughtering of the young ram is far less difficult. Because of the care and segregated pasturing of the ewes and rams the flavor of the meat was free of the usual gaminess associated with mutton. In addition nothing was wasted as the hides were both properly brain tanned. Wait a minute did you say "Hill Country"?? As in Texas?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Warrior108

    Warrior108 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Apr 24, 2012
    This is not really a knife/model comparison photo but while I was taking measurements, I thought it would be a good visual for observations when comparing a Razorback to a measuring device. :D

    Deadpool Approved! :thumbup:

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Comprehensivist

    Comprehensivist Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Aug 23, 2008
    Since it looks like Chris has another “K” variant Raptor in process for the next batch, I thought it would be a good time to post a couple of comparison photos of mine with a Fiddleback Old School Ladyfinger.

    With the blades facing each other and lined up on the back edge, you will notice that the “K” Raptor has substantially more finger clearance to the cutting surface even though the handle is shorter than the Ladyfinger. I like the handle height and rounded butt top transition at the back end of the handle of the “K” Raptor along with the up-tilted angle of the handle relative to the blade. The Ladyfinger is very comfortable to me also. My early concern that the more pronounced corner on the top of the angled pommel might bother me proved unfounded because the added length and curved shape of the handle places this spot past the edge of my palm.

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    The length of the cutting edge is very similar on these two knives. The “K” Raptor has a little more of an aggressive curve to the blade by nature of its tip position being higher than the Ladyfinger’s drop point.

    [​IMG]

    The “K” Raptor is my favorite Osprey K&T blade so far. It takes what was already my favorite model and improves on it by making it more kitchen friendly. I recommend that you give it serious consideration for your next buy if you have the chance.

    Phil
     
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  6. varga49

    varga49 Gold Member Gold Member

    May 1, 2016
    Phil I really appreciate this post. Even though I've never held either blade in my hand I now have a basic idea of the K Raptors abilities and usefulness in my kitchen, both indoor and outdoor. I'm well past the serious consideration point and hope to snag one soon!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. Comprehensivist

    Comprehensivist Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Aug 23, 2008
    A couple of weeks ago I took a few comparison photos to help a forum member better understand relative size of a couple of OK&T models. I just realized that I forgot to post them in this thread, so here goes.

    The first set is the Warthog and Raptor with a Jarrett Fleming Kestrel. The second set is the same two knives with a Fiddleback Hiking Buddy.


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    Phil
     
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  8. adequacy

    adequacy

    624
    Mar 19, 2014
    Thanks again for those photos Phil. Now that the warthog has arrived, I'll be posting some comparison photos soon :)
     
  9. Osprey Knife & Tool

    Osprey Knife & Tool Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 4, 2014
    Great comparison shots Phil, I alway enjoy when you post up these comparison photos!
    Thank you for taking the time to take these photos and share with us! I am sure a lot of people will find them helpful.
     
  10. adequacy

    adequacy

    624
    Mar 19, 2014
    [​IMG]

    Fiddleback Forge Hiking Buddy

    Jarrett Fleming Kestrel

    Osprey Warthog with taller blade
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  11. FeralGentleman

    FeralGentleman RansomWildernessCo Dealer / Materials Provider

    Nov 13, 2013
    Very nice Phil. Love how each has its own subtle difference from the others. We need to find you an matching ebony or darker African Blackwood for those special occasions.

    The Hiking Buddy though! That's a special one. I would say let us have a conversation about it, but that one is very fitting for a burlap brother.
     
  12. FeralGentleman

    FeralGentleman RansomWildernessCo Dealer / Materials Provider

    Nov 13, 2013
    Awesome Ryan. I think we share a common interest in both knife style and handles. I have a couple matching companions to your Warthog... I really enjoy the OD on natural. I hope you like that one, I think Chris designed a great knife in the Warthog and Razorback family.
     
  13. romarin

    romarin

    56
    Feb 18, 2017
    Thank you all for these comparisons. They are incredibly helpful!
     
  14. M4Super90

    M4Super90 Biochemical Superfreak Gold Member

    Aug 26, 2008
    I’ve been wanting to try a Trailhand for some time now and was able to snag one from the recent Fiddleback Outpost batch - 3/32 CPM154 TT with Carbon Fiber over blue liners. I’ve had it about a week now and it have been comparing it to the other OK/T knives of the same relative size. I’ve also thrown in a Patch and a Hiking buddy for size reference.

    Gratuitous pic of the Trailhand with a firearm:

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    In comparison with other OK/T models. L to R – Warthog, Trailhand, Mamushi, Raptor:

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    and with the Fiddlebacks. L to R – Patch, Warthog, Trailhand, Mamushi, Raptor, Hiking Buddy:

    [​IMG]

    Model, Thickness, Tang config, Steel type, and Weight (oz/g) of the knives:
    Patch 3/32 SFT O1 3.4 oz/97g
    Warthog 1/8 TT CPM154 3.9 oz/110g
    Trailhand 3/32 TT CPM154 3.8 oz/109g
    Mamushi 1/8 TT CPM154 4.5 oz/128g
    Raptor 3/32 TT CPM154 3.4 oz/96g
    Hiking Buddy 1/8 TT O1 3.6oz/101g

    About 2 years ago Phil (Comprehensivist) spent quite a bit of time coaxing me into giving a Patch a serious try. I finally agreed to carry one when my wife and I went to Yellowstone for two weeks. I've been carry that knife ever since, so that's the EDC I've been comparing various blades to recently. I’ve been trying to identify just exactly what it is that I find useful about the Patch. The functions I use the Patch for are not what I use and require of a field knife or a kitchen knife. Although, a lot of those tasks do overlap. It does perform quite well with notching, ringing, flat cuts etc. and so it’s still a handy knife for detail-oriented bushcraft. It also gets used for small food prep and as an eating tool. Of course, it’s extremely useful in day to day tasks that most of us probably use our EDC for like opening mail, opening boxes, slicing cheese, or eating a steak.

    To get more granular, what’s the exact quality a shorter blade height Patch-ish knife has that I find so useful? Perhaps it’s that I’ve been carry this one long enough I’ve be comfortable with it and I want others to be more similar. As most know, Chris’ K-line (Kitchen) variants provide a little different ergonomics which allow additional clearance of the hand between the handle and cutting board. That assumes that the majority of the blade length is used and is parallel to the cutting surface. That is far from the case of the Patch’s design, which is more or less straight and reduces this clearance to almost none if trying to use the rear part of the blade.

    For an EDC, I’ve noticed the way I use it means the majority of the work is done in with the first inch or two of the blade. With most tasks, there is no cutting board for clearance, but the “angle of attack”, i.e. the relationship of the handle to the part of the portion of the blade that is doing the work, does have an impact on what using the knife feels like. Chris mentioned in the “Questions for the maker’ thread Chris has indicated he has a formula he starts with when designing knives and I’d like to know more about what components, if any, the formula pertains to.

    The relationship of handle to the part of the portion of the blade that is doing the work made me think of chord and camber on an airfoil. I found a diagram that shows this relationship on a wing:

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    I admit I’m WAY overthinking this (or have been hanging out with Phil too much :D), but for an EDC the part of the blade doing work and the angle it creates to the user, may be a far more important quality than how much cutting surface at the rear of the blade you can use without banging your knuckles or hitting the guard :eek: - i.e. the K variant design seems to add how much blade you can have parallel to the surface at one time, rather than how much belly you can use at a comfortable angle. Thus, for EDC functions you can have a relative straight knife overall and still have a lot of usable blade at a comfortable angle. Probably the reason the puukko design has been around for so long.

    So I picked a single function – slicing a steak. I’ve made a comparison of all the OK/T knives plus my original Patch with the thought of slicing a steak in mind and the resulting handle angle. I took the knives above and put the tip on an plane denoted by the X axis of the grid and rocked the knife back until a point 1” back from the tip (blue dot) touched the cutting surface. You could do this at any point of the blade, but I did this 1” back because most of the knives here share similarity to that point and then that’s where the cutting surface geometry starts to diverge (more on that later).

    Patch
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    Warthog
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    Trailhand
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    Mamushi
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    Raptor
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    Hiking Buddy
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  15. M4Super90

    M4Super90 Biochemical Superfreak Gold Member

    Aug 26, 2008
    You can see the angle the handle has between the cutting surface is different, but it’s the “chord” dimension – from the contact point of the blade to the contact point in your palm at the rear of the handle that I find interesting. Let me show you what I mean. I’ve measured this with the Patch, shown as the chord dimension “A”. This allows you to measure B & C. Compare the Patch and the Trailhand on blade profile in the next pic and then the relationship of the contact points in the following two pics:

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    The blade profile and the chord dimension are more similar than any other Patch pairing. However, the spine and the deviation from the chord line are quite different.

    Here’s the same proportional measure shown on the Mamushi and it’s a totally different relationship. I suspect this relationship is really a performance envelop as you can shift you hand up and down the knife handle if it is “open” versus a “closed” or “M” configuration if the handle is large enough. To some extent, an open handle allows you to adjust this relationship more to your liking.

    [​IMG]

    OK, back to the point at which the blade profile diverges and has a significant impact on attack angle. If you line up as much of the first portion of the blade as you can, the handle angle can be radically different. Here are the various comparisons. Note the position of the handles at the bottom of the photos in relation to one another. The patch is always on top:

    Patch vs. Trailhand
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    Patch vs. Warthog
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    Patch vs. Mamushi
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    Patch vs. Raptor
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    Patch vs. HB
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    I think with this method I’ve incorporated not only the ergonomics of the handle but normalized it in relation to the blade profile. You can see that the Trailhand has very similar blade profile to the Patch, but the spine is very different and the final angle is different. However, the chord dimension on the Trailhand is closer to the Patch than of any of the other OK/T knives. Based on that I predict the Trailhand will quickly become a favorite. Here it is in an ISP-3 that the Mamushi formerly rode in. My new EDC for the foreseeable future:

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Comprehensivist

    Comprehensivist Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Aug 23, 2008
    Fascinating post Phillip. There is a lot to chew on and digest there. I appreciate your detailed analytical approach in presenting this information. You did a great job setting up the photos in a way that brings clarity to the points you are making in the text.

    I read through your post a couple of times to absorb it all. I am going to hold off a little while before posting a substantive reply so that I can organize my thoughts a little more. Briefly, I get your points about cutting edge profile and angle of attack. The Patch and Trail Hand use very different design approaches to get to a similar result in those two areas. I am still processing how to word what I want to say about those design elements. Your photos with the chord line highlight these differences nicely. More on this later.

    That is a beautiful Trail Hand you scored by the way. The blue pinstripes add a classy pop that contrasts nicely with the carbon fiber. Right in line with your taste. I hope to pick up a similarly nice synthetic handled Trail Hand for myself soon.

    Phil
     
  17. Warrior108

    Warrior108 Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Apr 24, 2012
    Very cool way to put words to this concept! I would refer to this "concept" as "that damned most oft used portion of the blade that most oft needs edge maintenance" :D

    It is the part that seems to need immediate attention on my Fiddleback A2's after cutting the Kids' pancakes on a Corningware plate. The OKTs behave better in the same circumstances given that CPM154 seems to be have better edge retention. Thus, I've found myself preferring CPM154 over A2 and eyeballing my knives wanting to get more overall cutting edge use. These have been my reasons that I seek out guardless models or pester Chris for guardless models.


    Thanks for the awesome reviews and putting this to terminology and pictures!

    - Jerry


    PS/Note for general reader comment: Yes, I know A2 has its place but I don't tend to use my knives in those places. ;)
     
  18. adequacy

    adequacy

    624
    Mar 19, 2014
    Phillip, that comparison post was excellent. On all of my EDCs, I find that your analysis of angle of attack and the region along the blade where most cutting happens incredibly accurate. Like Phil, I think I'll need a few more days to digest the majority of the content and come up with a more detailed response.

    I find that for me, especially in things like food prep, the half of the blade closest to the guard doesn't see much use. It does come in handy for whittling, sometimes opening packages, cutting rope, etc, but not for cutting something that stays flat on a board. In this instance, and for this reason, the knives that I tend to gravitate towards loving are the ones that allow relief and comfort in these angled positions and don't cause my wrist or hand to be uncomfortable during this angle of repeated tilt.

    I also have found that I dislike handles that have too much limitation on my pinky finger (similar to how pertinux describes it). For this reason, blades like the bear cub, monarch, bushcraft jr, and several others in the size category I like, all were quickly unpopular blades in my repertoire. On some of them, if they had even 1/4" more handle length, the entire feel of the knife would be changed for me. Only then would I be able to evaluate the blade shape and the rest of the design once my hand is comfortable. I suppose that means that I feel that handle comfort is a #1 priority for me, and blade shape and effectiveness in use at #2.

    This is where my new experience with my warthog from Chris comes in to place (especially since this is thread focuses on OKT comparisons). While the warthog has a similar handle length to the hiking buddy and others in its class, it has a more open ended curve that doesn't lock your hand into an uncomfortable zone. More on this later-

    Bringing this back around to your discussion on angles in use: The warthog variant I got is almost like the "k" variants. It has a taller height blade and no guard. I don't believe the curvature in the handle is modified like in the raptors and apache K variants. While I only have several days of use with my new hog, and I need much more time to evaluate, what I do like about this guard-less variant is that the additional blade height reduces the amount of angle I need to make clearance for my fingers, and thus, a less extreme angle on the hand when cutting on a flat surface. It may be only a cm or so but it does seem to have an impact.

    I will add more thoughts on this as I get more usage with the knife.

    Thanks again for such great insight and contributions to everyone here.

    OH!

    And to Danny regarding my uploaded photo:

    I agree, I think we do have very similar tastes both in handle colors and materials AND knife choices :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  19. Osprey Knife & Tool

    Osprey Knife & Tool Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 4, 2014
    Phillip, that comparison post was amazing and packed full of information. I am surely going to analyze this over and over again. And is super helpful for sparking new ideas. I already have bells going off in my head Like Phil, and Adequacy said I think I'll need more time to study and analyze the content and come up with a deserving response.

    I would like to encourage anyone else to add to this discussion or add your own comparisons or thoughts. It helps me formulate new ideas, sometimes in unexpected ways!
    This is one of the things I try to encourage and cultivate with my customers, I feel it is a symbiotic connection in way that allows me to perceive and interpret ideas and concepts outside of my relative experience and comfort zone, I feel it helps foster an exchange of information that provides me with the fresh inspiration and Ideas I constantly crave, as well as providing you guys a channel to see some of these aspects you guys find important become reality.
     
  20. M4Super90

    M4Super90 Biochemical Superfreak Gold Member

    Aug 26, 2008
    Thanks all. Amazing what you can think up when playing with some new knives on a Sunday morning. I guess I haev way too much free time and tend to be overly analytical. I could probably just say, this one "feels better" and be done with it. It is surprising though that the Patch and Trailhand seem to both feel good and are very different designs yet the proportion are similar. I'm going to keep play with some of mu favorite users and see is there any consistency to the hypothesis. Still a fun Sunday morning playing with knives....
     

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