OT: Animal thread--Cows

Munk: our (western) society is currently overproducing everything massively - we produce so much that we need to export some of that stuff elsewhere and even that is not enough, we need to keep spending just so the system doesn't collapse. Working all day long on a farm and working in a modern society today when you CAN make a very reasonable (compared to the farm life from your example) living in 35-40 hours can't really be compared between one another.We (Westerners) have plenty of food, gadgets and everything else we desire, what we usually don't have enough of is the time to use all those gadgets to cheer us up. It's a trade-off - yes, you could make more money working longer but what would you do with that money ? Pay unemployment support for the guy whocannot get a job from whatever reason, that's one thing, then what ? Pay your shrink to get you out of your depression ? Not exactly appealing thought :D

It's like killing entire flock of birds with one stone. There are probably some downsides to it too but ultimately (with production increasing all the time) we'll have to take a break at some point - either we all do it (with shorter work weeks) or some end up working and making money and others end up being unemployed, leeching off of those working until the system finally collapses because those who don't work cannot consume rabidly either. You know, the Star Trekish kind of society. Maybe not exactly like it but unless we find an alien world in need of our goods somewhere soon our own ability to produce ever more will be our downfall unless we take a break. Who needs 10 TVs or 20 cars ? You can ride the wallmartish consumption cycle only so. I know i'd rather live it out with fewer worries and without the fancy cars, villas and private jets, than die after years of nothing but neverending work :barf:

Man i steered even further OT that this thread was in the first place :D If anybody is interested in discussing the subject further maybe Rusty can split it and/or move it to more appropriate forum ?
 
45-70 said:
I thought I had it good with 4 weeks of vacation at 35 years of age, how many do Germans really get?
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25-28 days per year - so that is more than 5 weeks if you have a five day-week.

It worked because the German economy used to be more productive than other countries and the employees had a very low rate of days missing because of illness. It does no longer work nowadays.

As a teacher I work nominally 42 hours a week, that is teaching, correcting tests, managing the library and some smaller work. In reality I have 70 hour weeks as well as 40 hour weeks (depends heavily on the correction work - you can imagine that it takes some time to correct essays of 31 students of the elenventh or twelfth class if every single student has 150 minutes time to write - and that is just one class, I have four of them in German literature (and four in history - but that is not as much work) and they write four tests a year plus eight "mock exams" that have to be corrected...
BUT I have large benefits as I do what I love - work with people and students, I can correct when I want - in the afternoon (three of them per week are free) or the evening or the weekend. And my job is secure as soon as I am a "civil servant for lifetime" (ususally after five years as a full time teacher, but sooner if you are among the 20% best, later or never if you have real bad marks). And payment is not so bad - but it is less than in the free economy.

Andreas
 
Faramir;
It is not often you can accept a job with the stipulation you want a month vacation because America 'overproduces'.
I think your post was more of a general observation about industrial societies and capitalism. I can't think of an alternative to capitalism that has ever made as many people fed, dry, and sometimes happy.

I'm not sure who owns ten tv's. I never did. Most people dont make enough money to buy a new car every year, but pay one off in 3 to 5. We pay our houses off over a lifetime. We rob the local Bank of America once to send our 2.5 kids to college.

There are more millionare's in today's society, but the middle class has shrunk dramatically.

munk
 
I don't thnk there is one single "capitalism"munk - France uses same capitalistic rules but manages their work weeks a tad differently. Die hard capitalism would(IMHO) alow some people to get extremely rich while the rest just fight for crumbs every day. In society where one is willing to forego a chance to get Bill Gates rich because of obstacles government imposes (note that there are very rich people in Europe too, it's just harder to get there if you get into the 40 or even 35 hour work week rythm) i fimrly believe most people will be fed (= employed). This is no socialism/comunism, it's still free market, but with limit imposed on how far one can go wasting one of the limited (and ever more expensive) production factors - your time (labor). Limit just like those we have with regards to traffic, taxes, etc. I wish we were more like France in this regard, i wouldn't mind a 35-hour work week and eliminated unemployment at all :)

The overproduction, i mentioned it because it becomes a problem once you get everybody employed, they make their living but way toomuch product is manufactured and there is nobody left to buy it (because you have your TV or two, a car or two, etc. already). This is where the system would collapse eventually and will do even sooner with unemployed folks around, simply because you're supporting them as well - X dollars of your paycheck goes towards unemployment support while you could simply be working fewer hours, make X dollars less because of that and spend X dollars less in taxes - nobody loses but both you and the guy who got a job because of that gain something - you get fmore free time and less stress and he gets a job and in turn also becomes a paying member of society, again lessening the tax burden of the likes of you. Overproduction will create unemployment agan as society becomes even more productive so either work week will have to be shortened again, income per worker permitting, or some external trade opportunities will have to arise (trade with aliens ? :D ). Is it worth working 70 hours per week just so you support one bum who cannot get a job ? I'd rather work less and have one bum less to support, financially it about evens out, plus i'll be less aggravated by somebody "leeching" off of my hard-earned income (note that taxes and social security expenditures represent a considerably bigger portion of one's paycheck in Europe tahn they do in the US, this is why unemployed bums can and do make a living, they have free health care to an extent, etc. - why not let them work and pay for those perks themselves instead of me putting in 20 extra hours just so i support them ?).
 
faramir said:
I don't thnk there is one single "capitalism"munk - France uses same capitalistic rules but manages their work weeks a tad differently. Die hard capitalism would(IMHO) alow some people to get extremely rich while the rest just fight for crumbs every day. In society where one is willing to forego a chance to get Bill Gates rich because of obstacles government imposes (note that there are very rich people in Europe too, it's just harder to get there if you get into the 40 or even 35 hour work week rythm) i fimrly believe most people will be fed (= employed). This is no socialism/comunism, it's still free market, but with limit imposed on how far one can go wasting one of the limited (and ever more expensive) production factors - your time (labor). Limit just like those we have with regards to traffic, taxes, etc. I wish we were more like France in this regard, i wouldn't mind a 35-hour work week and eliminated unemployment at all :)

The overproduction, i mentioned it because it becomes a problem once you get everybody employed, they make their living but way toomuch product is manufactured and there is nobody left to buy it (because you have your TV or two, a car or two, etc. already). This is where the system would collapse eventually and will do even sooner with unemployed folks around, simply because you're supporting them as well - X dollars of your paycheck goes towards unemployment support while you could simply be working fewer hours, make X dollars less because of that and spend X dollars less in taxes - nobody loses but both you and the guy who got a job because of that gain something - you get fmore free time and less stress and he gets a job and in turn also becomes a paying member of society, again lessening the tax burden of the likes of you. Overproduction will create unemployment agan as society becomes even more productive so either work week will have to be shortened again, income per worker permitting, or some external trade opportunities will have to arise (trade with aliens ? :D ). Is it worth working 70 hours per week just so you support one bum who cannot get a job ? I'd rather work less and have one bum less to support, financially it about evens out, plus i'll be less aggravated by somebody "leeching" off of my hard-earned income (note that taxes and social security expenditures represent a considerably bigger portion of one's paycheck in Europe tahn they do in the US, this is why unemployed bums can and do make a living, they have free health care to an extent, etc. - why not let them work and pay for those perks themselves instead of me putting in 20 extra hours just so i support them ?).
Click to expand...

Very well said and I agree totally. The assessment of overproduction and lack of trade options increasing....OK see the UFO thread....seems like the system is doomed to collapse soon....just how soon we don't know. Interesting thinking.
 
Yes, France has a 'modified' capitalism- socialism, though the US is hardly a pure capitalism. You've focused on over-production as The Problem, which it is not, (it is one) and you even stated we must export because of it.
Faramir- we export to make money, not because there are too many boxes left lying around and why don't we sell them? If you wish an experiment where all nations seal their borders and survive on their own resouces I'm certain the US with it's vast land would do better than "old Europe'. There must be trade if the standard of living both you and I want can be attained by most.

This big balloon will continue as long as there are emerging markets. And there will be emerging markets as long as you and I are alive, and probably our grandchildren.
France is broke, and has been for awhile. That is why we started this topic- remember- more tax for social programs France promises its citizens?

I personally think the US could pay for the 35 work week if we stopped overtaxing overtime hourly wages.

Frankly, the problems facing us- World wide corporations, overproduction, third world abuse of environment to satisfy cheap labor and production, too many people: won't be solved. But this will hit the fan when enough of us are in real danger of not having toys and or enough to eat. Then we get free govt cheese, a free watch and TV/computer.

I think Walmart is the future for the next 100 years anyway. Walmart citizens. But there aint no way in hell we're going to stop this thing by stewarding our resources and what you call overproduction. Not until we Have To.

In fact, that may be the real human motto- "Not until I had to", or, "they made me do it."

Or how about, "Hunger made me do it but when they took the OC off TV that was the last straw." ???

munk
 
It has always seemed to me that national political leaders (world-wide, but especially in the U.S.) are a lot like a train crew who know that the bridge over Deadman's Gulch is out, but keep on piling on the coal because they also know their shift will be over before the Gulch is reached.
 
Munk, having spent better portion of my life in a socialist country (a real one) i can assure you France (or Sandinavian countries for that matter) are really socialist countruies. Socially aware capitalism would be a better way to put it, difference being the free market (real socialist systems meddled with everything to the extent of makingcompanies unprofitable, producing items of little use to the population, etc., which is not what those countries are doing). If only it wasn't so darn cold up there [in Scandinavia[ i'd move there :D

BTW, i'm slightly ill (38.6 deg C / 101.5 deg F this morning),i'll be back when i can think straight again - now i feel as if i was really drunk, except that i don't bump into furniture :barf:
 
If we "seal" our borders to trade, there will be some adjustments to make. A "Top Ten" list:

1. Short term - no new computers or other electronics, almost no new shoes, and almost no new clothes.

2. Walmart, Coles, Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. all close due to lack of products. Millions unemployed.

3. Mass transit replaces internal-combustion-engine-driven vehicles due to lack of oil. Drive-ins all converted to all-week flea markets. Stock in companies producing alternate fuels jumps sharply. ADM buys Nebraska and Iowa outright. Des Moines becomes world's largest company town.

4. Reduced use of plactics due to lack of oil. Iron mines and coal mines reopen. W.V. booms!

5. Mandatory recycling due to lack of aluminum ore.

6. Home-canning makes a comeback due to lack of fruits and vegetables from foreighn countries. (By 2005, if present trend continues, dollar value of agricultural imports will exceed value of agicultural exports.)

7. Halloween canceled due to lack of costumes.

8. No meds from Canada.

9. GM Rules the U.S. Ford Motor Co. ceases to be profitable due to loss of European sales. Daimler-Benx closes its unprofitable Chrysler division. Everyone buys a battery-driven Chevy. U.S. Toyota and Honda plants close in economic warfare. Quality of motor-vehicles falls to 1950-60's levels due to monoploy by GM.

10. Internet collapses due to loss of traffic in foreign porn.
 
clearblue said:
DEMOCRATIC You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. Barbara Streisand sings for you.

REPUBLICANISM You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So?

SOCIALIST You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor. You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

COMMUNIST You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk. You wait in line for hours to get it. It is expensive and sour.

CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. Under the new farm program the government pays you to shoot one, milk the other, and then pours the milk down the drain.

AMERICAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one. You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when one cow drops dead. You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses. Your stock goes up. You retire with a 12 billion golden parachute.

FRENCH CORPORATION You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows. You go to lunch and drink wine. Life is good.

JAPANESE CORPORATION You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. They learn to eat raw fish and rice. Most are at the top of their class at cow school.

GERMAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk; unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year.

ITALIAN CORPORATION You have two cows but you don't know where they are. While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman. You break for lunch. Life is good.

RUSSIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You have some vodka. You count them and learn you have five cows. You have some more vodka. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have.

TALIBAN CORPORATION You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two. You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature' private parts. You get a $40 million grant from the US government to find alternatives to milk production but use the money to buy weapons.

IRAQI CORPORATION You have two cows. They go into hiding. They send radio tapes of their mooing.

POLISH CORPORATION You have two bulls. Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them.

BELGIAN CORPORATION You have one cow. The cow is schizophrenic. Sometimes the cow thinks he's French, other times he's Flemish. The Flemish cow won't share with the French cow. The French cow wants control of the Flemish cow's milk. The cow asks permission to be cut in half. The cow dies happy.

FLORIDA CORPORATION You have an attractive black cow and an attractive brown cow. Everyone votes for the prettiest. Some people vote for both. Some people can't figure out how to vote at all. Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which one you think is the best-looking cow.

CALIFORNIA CORPORATION You have millions of cows. One third drown in floods;One third burn up in brush fires; Only five speak English. Arnold likes the ones with the big udders.Michael Jackson likes the little bull calves.

IRISH CORPORATION:You own two cows. They are green. You are drunk anyway so you don't care.
Thanks to Faramir!

JAMAICAN CORPORATION:You own two cows and a ganja patch. Cows eat all de herb.You kill cows make jerk beef. :)
Click to expand...

Lycanthropy: The world is filled with cattle.
 
BruiseLeee said:
11. Bruise becomes thousandaire by smuggling khukuries into the United States.
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I wondered when someone would mention the lack of a CERTAIN foreign product. :rolleyes:











(French cheese, of course. :D )
 
If you can accept that dissatisfaction is the basis for ALL change,then the prime movers for change are PAIN and FEAR. A the old song goes:

THERE'LL BE SOME CHANGES MADE
W. Benton Overstreet / Billy Higgins

They say don't change the old for the new
But I've found out that this will never do
When you grow old don't last long
You're here today and then tomorrow you're gone
I loved a man for many years gone by
I thought his love for me would never die
He made some changes that would never do
From now on I'm going to make some changes too
For there's a change in the weather
There's a change in the sea
So from now on there'll be in change in me
My walk will be different, my talk and my name
Nothin' about me is going to be the same
I'm goin' to change my wayof livin'
If that ain't enough
Then I'll change the way that I strut my stuff
'Cause nobody wants you when you're old and gray
There'll be some changes made today
There'll be some changes made :D :D


A change in me, a change in me
You mark my words jist wait and see
I ain't joking gal no sirree
There's gonna be a change in me!!!
 
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