OT: Book-Search & Help with Dark Ages Sword Names

I suspect that all these words were originally stated simply as the word sword. Across the centuries Beowolf would have been translated into more modern languages and these relics of earlier translations were either misunderstood, or, omitted. Someone might have been translating a "A" language text into "B" language text and mistaken a "C" language term (which someone forgotten to translate earlier) as a formal name.

n2s
 
N2S,
Many thanks for the help. I'm a little confused though. But first, I'm very interested to see what the links you found were, but they don't seem to be working (well, the 2nd one is just a link back to bladeforums-new message page):

http://hem.passagen.se/progenator/danglish36htm5.htm

...and yet one more:
'More interesting still, the Old English secg is a frequently-used word for sword and used in various compounds, such as secg-rof, meaning a host of (sword-bearing) men...'

Which I found on this site:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/n...threadid=193972
Click to expand...


OK, here's my confusion -

(1)I'm working with the original text of Beowulf. It may or may not be the 'original' original (most people assume the extant 11th century MS to be a copy), but it's not a translation - it's the Old English text and that's the language that Beowulf was originally written in. With copies, words can become corrupted for various reasons, but see (2):

(2)These words show up in other Old English texts as well, so it's not just Beowulf - they're well-established words in the corpus of Old English.

(3)Yes, they all do mean 'sword', but it's a question of what type of sword.:

[a]despite what Brady says, I'm not entirely convinced that 'brond' isn't just a generic sword name. 'Brond' is 'brand' - you're right; and in fact the 2 spellings alternate in Old English. The original sense of 'brond/brand' is "fire, flame, torch" - not surprising, considering the present-day meaning of 'brand'. I'm not sure what makes her think it refers specifically to a 'short sword', I'll have to re-examine that bit.

a 'bill' may be a well-defined weapon, but the post-Saxon 'bill' is not the same thing as Old English 'bill/bil', this latter being quite evidently some sort of double-edged long sword.

[c]i'd be curious to see that page, but 'secg' can also mean "warrior", yes - but that's the masculine form. The feminine form 'secg' means "[some sort of] sword". Of course, it's no accident that the masculine form means "warrior". secg-rof is actually a bad example though, because I think that that compound is only found once in a single text (Ruin, l.27). My dictionary glosses it as ' brave?, troop?' - so the meaning doesn't appear to be too certain. rof generally means 'brave', so my first guess at secg-rof would be something like "sword-brave" (='brave with swords?, brave in the face of swords?, brave in battle?, &c.').

Brady claims 'secg' is a short sword of some sort, but I'm not quite sure why. I'd put this one in the 'maybe-pile', i.e. it may be a 'generic' sword-term like 'sweord'.

[d]'mece' is again some sort of sword, apparently similar, but distinct from a 'bil' (the word is cognate with Gothic mekeis, but that's not really helpful for a number of reasons...).

'mece' and 'bil' and 'seax' all seem to be distinct in any event. we know what a 'seax' is (though it can vary a bit--but in England it's almost always the 'dagger-sized' type), 'bil' and 'mece' are apparently some sort of 2-edged long swords, but distinct from one another in some fashion.

The words themselves may or may not all originate as the word SWORD (abstractly speaking, I don't mean the actual phonetic word)..[actually I know that 'brond' doesn't originate from SWORD, but rather from FIRE] - the point is that in Anglo-Saxon literature they refer to different types of swords. Just like 'scimitar', 'knife' and 'khukuree' all originate from the word SHARP(EN), RAZOR - but a 'scimitar' and a 'khukuree' are different types of swords, though they have similarities. My point being, especially during a time when swords were very important and one of the most highly valued objects one could possess--it makes sense to have specific words for different types of swords, so it's not surprising to find a pattern of 'bil' only being applied to Sword A in a text, and 'mece' applying to Swords B & C, but not A, &c., &c.

I.e. - an Ang Khola and a Sirupati are two different things, aren't they?

I much appreciate your assistance and I would like to see what those pages you posted are, if we can figure out how to get the links working again.

cheers, B.
 
Beoram.
Is there any chance that the word "bil" could refer to some sort of axe?
In old swedish the word "bila" is useed about a rather large one- or two hand broad-axe. I've read the discussion about "bill" being a polearm of some sort and it could be possible that the swedish word "bila" comes from the polearm. But I suspect that it may not because I don't think polearms were usually used for execution through beheading, which is the case with the "bila". Execution through beheading (swedish history) cuold be done by either sword or axe. The sword was used for the "noble"way of becoming behedaed the axe was used for criminals and other "low-lives". In these circumstances the axe is refered to as "bila" in swedish.

But the bila is also a tool-axe used by craftsmen to "scale" off wood and in that case the word "bila" is both a subtantive,an axe, and a verb meaning "to scale off wood".

It would be interesting to know if there is any connection.

Best regards

Daniel
 
Beoram could it possibly be that the word Brond/Brand meaning Fire could be the term for the old Le Flambe Swords that were found in almost every culture at some time or another?

I don't have any idea as to how common the Le Flambe Swords were, but from what little I have read they were rather rare.
I also get the feeling from what's written about these swords is that they usually belonged to an unusually brave warrior, but I'm just like Uncle Bill says, "This thread is not for illiterates like me.":)
 
Originally posted by Sgt.D
Beoram.
Is there any chance that the word "bil" could refer to some sort of axe?
In old swedish the word "bila" is useed about a rather large one- or two hand broad-axe. I've read the discussion about "bill" being a polearm of some sort and it could be possible that the swedish word "bila" comes from the polearm. But I suspect that it may not because I don't think polearms were usually used for execution through beheading, which is the case with the "bila". Execution through beheading (swedish history) cuold be done by either sword or axe. The sword was used for the "noble"way of becoming behedaed the axe was used for criminals and other "low-lives". In these circumstances the axe is refered to as "bila" in swedish.

But the bila is also a tool-axe used by craftsmen to "scale" off wood and in that case the word "bila" is both a subtantive,an axe, and a verb meaning "to scale off wood".

It would be interesting to know if there is any connection.
Click to expand...

Daniel - bill/bil is one of those words with very slippery semantics. It originates from the Proto-Indo-European root *bhil- which means "to split, to cleave", and you can see how with this root meaning it can come to refer to many different tools. The Oxford English Dictionary provides a good synopsis:

BILL:
(bIl) Forms: 1–7 bil, 5–6 byl, bylle, bille, 1– bill. [Com. WGer.: OE. bil, billes neut., sword, falchion = OS. bil, the same, OHG. bill neut. (MHG. bil neut., mod.G. bille fem., pickaxe) prob.:—OTeut. *biljo-(m (with WGer. ll for lj), connected by some with Skr. bhil to split, cleave. Applied to various cutting weapons and implements, the relations of which to each other are not satisfactorily ascertained. (Ger. beil, OHG. bîhal, is an entirely different word.)]

†1. A weapon of war mentioned in OE. poetry, a kind of broadsword, a falchion. Obs. (Probably passing with modified shape into sense 2.)

a1000 Beowulf 4126 Æfter billes bíte. c1050 Ags. Gloss. in Wr.-Wülcker Voc. 376 Chalibem, bill. 1205 Lay. 1740 Þer wes bil ibeat ¾ þer wes balu muchel. [1867 Freeman Norm. Conq. (1876) I. v. 273 note, The bill here [in Death of Brihtnoth] spoken of was a sword and not an axe.]

2. An obsolete military weapon used chiefly by infantry; varying in form from a simple concave blade with a long wooden handle, to a kind of concave axe with a spike at the back and its shaft terminating in a spear-head; a halberd.
Distinct forms of bills seem to have been painted or varnished in different colours; hence the black and brown bills of the 16th and 17th centuries.

b. A similar weapon used by constables of the watch till late in the 18th cent. Also attrib.

3. Short for bill-man.

4. An implement used for pruning, cutting wood, lopping trees, hedges, etc., having a long blade with a concave edge, often ending in a sharp hook (cf. bill-hook), and a wooden handle in line with the blade, which may be long as in the hedging-bill, or short as in the hand-bill. (The form of the ‘bill’ varies greatly in different localities.)

†5. A digging implement; a mattock or pickaxe.
Click to expand...

But in Beowulf it indisputably refers to a sword - I can give you supporting quotes if you desire.

Even in Old High German, bil refers to some sort of sword, e.g., this passage from Hildebrandslied:

'nu scal mih suasat chind suertu [sword] hauwan, breton mit sinu billiu [bill]' (roughly "now my own child is destined at hew me with (his) sword, lay (me) low with his bill")
Click to expand...

I think this is an excellent example of how difficult it is to pin down what these words refer to - not only does the meaning change with time, but one cannot even depend on 'contemporary' cognates like Old Swedish bila to supply meaning. Indeed, in Modern English 'bill' also refers to some sort of pole-arm, somewhat axe-like.

cheers, Ben.
 
Originally posted by Yvsa
Beoram could it possibly be that the word Brond/Brand meaning Fire could be the term for the old Le Flambe Swords that were found in almost every culture at some time or another?

I don't have any idea as to how common the Le Flambe Swords were, but from what little I have read they were rather rare.
I also get the feeling from what's written about these swords is that they usually belonged to an unusually brave warrior, but I'm just like Uncle Bill says, "This thread is not for illiterates like me.":)
Click to expand...

Yvsa - I don't know anything about Le Flambe swords :eek: - could you enlighten me? :)

B.
 
Boy, I sure messed up that link. Here is another

javascript:"<HEAD><TITLE> </TITLE></HEAD><BODY%20LEFTMARGIN=0%20TOPMARGIN=0%20MARGINHEIGHT=0%20MARGINWIDTH=0><a%20href=http://servedby.advertising.com/click/site=0000030858/mnum=0000049624/genr=1/tkdt=B0P6R0T0/bnum=68447992%20target=_blank><img%20src=http://servedby.advertising.com/site=0000030858/mnum=0000049624/logs=0/mdtm=1016131336/bins=1%20border=0%20alt='Click%20to%20learn%20more...'></a></BODY>"http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE446.htmlIn

...And here is the text just in case...

do-European Roots

ENTRY: sek-
DEFINITION: To cut.
Derivatives include scythe, Saxon, skin, insect, and sickle.
1. scythe, from Old English sthe, sigthe, sickle, from Germanic *segith, sickle. 2. Suffixed o-grade form *sok--. saw1; hacksaw, from Old English sagu, sage, saw, from Germanic *sag, a cutting tool, saw. 3. Suffixed o-grade form *sok-yo-. sedge, from Old English secg, sedge, from Germanic *sagjaz, “sword,” plant with a cutting edge. 4. Suffixed o-grade form *sok-so-. a. zax, from Old English seax, knife, from Germanic *sahsam, knife, sword; b. Saxon, from Late Latin Sax (plural Saxons), a Saxon, from West Germanic tribal name *Saxon-, Saxon, traditionally (but doubtfully) regarded as from Germanic *sahsam (as if “warrior with knives”). 5. Extended root *skend-, to peel off, flay. skin, from Old Norse skinn, skin, from Germanic *skinth-. 6. Basic form *sek-. a. secant, –sect, sectile, section, sector, segment; dissect, insect, intersect, resect, transect, from Latin secre, to cut; b. seecatch, from Russian sech', to cut. 7. Lengthened-grade form *sk-. sickle, from Latin scula, sickle. 8. Possible suffixed variant form *sak-so-. sassafras, saxatile; saxicolous, saxifrage, from Latin saxum, stone (< “broken-off piece”?). (Pokorny 2. sk- 895, sken-(d-) 929.) See also extended roots skei-, sker-1.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
 
I think what Yvsa is referrering to is what I've heard called a flamberge type sword. They are usually two handed swords which are wavy like a kris. I seem to recall seeing a pic of a German one that was supposed to be close to seven feet in total length.
 
Ben,

I went back and fixed the link on the original post. The information is about half way down the page. An interesting read anyway.

n2s
 
Originally posted by CoalBlack
I think what Yvsa is referrering to is what I've heard called a flamberge type sword. They are usually two handed swords which are wavy like a kris. I seem to recall seeing a pic of a German one that was supposed to be close to seven feet in total length.
Click to expand...

That's right Coal. Thanks.:)
I was to lazy to try and find my "Book of the Sword" and unfortunately the Le Flambe is the least uncommon term used to describe these swords but also the easiest for me to remember and spell.:o
I had read about the single hand and hand and a half Le Flambe swords so I knew about them. When I did the search on Google I found a reference to a Le Flambe Rapier which I never knew existed so I learned something new as well.:)
(The reference is below.:))


This is the info I found with a search on Google.:).............

The swords are sometimes known as these names as well....flammards or flambards. I also found this website, didn't get the URL, with these names in French?????....
"Flambe, flambard, flammard -støední meè s vlnitou èepelí.
Flamberge -lidový název pro dlouhé meèe a obzvl᚝ pro dvouruèní meèe s plamennou èepelí; v Anglii tak byl oznaèován rapír, pozdìji to byl ve Francii ponìkud posmìšný název."

2630-landsknechte-flamberge-sword.jpg


FLAMBERG.GIF

The Flamberge

Also referred to as the Flamberg or Flammberg. The name derives in part from the old German geflammten, or flaming and from the French flamboyant. The flamberge is a form of the two-handed sword popular in Germany between the 15th and 17th centuries, especially among the Swiss mercenaries, the Landsknecht. The purpose of the wavy, flame-like blade is not clear as there is no demonstrated advantage to such an edge against armored or unarmored opponents. Often, the flamberge was used as a processional or court weapon; an undulating blade was undoubtedly more attractive than a plain blade in these cases. In any event, the flamberge was still a formidable weapon.

"An unusual waved-bladed rapier popular with officers and upper classes during the 1600s. It was considered to look both fashionable and deadly as well as erroneously believed to inflict a more deadly wound. When parrying with the flamberge, the opponent's sword was slowed slightly as it passed along the length. It also created a disconcerting vibration in the other blade. The term flamberge was also used later to describe a dish-hilted rapier with a normal straight blade. Certain wave or flame-bladed two-handed swords have also come to be known by collectors as "flamberges", although this is inaccurate. Such swords are more appropriately known as "flammards" or "flambards"."

flambard.gif

"Saldaeans carry their swords, "... those almost straight, slightly serpentine blades ..." on the hip <LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 76; 16, Tellings of the Wheel, 279>, suggesting a one-handed sword, or at the most, a one-and-a-half-hand sword. Blades are almost certainly of the wavy, flambard (often erroneously called flamberge) variety. While a slight, single-curve sword is still possible, as are Tam's, Lan's, and Laman's swords, it is telling that these are never described as serpentine."
 
and constantly educational and entertaining. The breadth
depth of knowledge continues to fascinate me.

Small thoughts as I read the thread:

Check with Art Institute of Chicago Armorer, extensive collection
there, exquisitely cataloged.

"Flame-edge" makes MY skin crawl...might have been to intimidate
adversaries into envisioning the effect on their flesh.

You already investigated High German, it seems...but the smattering
of Old English, and Chaucerian Middle English that stuck in My old
head keeps on dragging my mind back to their uses of words.

AND, latin, of course, mostly because I'm remembering the transcription of Beowolfe was attributed to scholars of the day,
whose literary background most often was liturgical.

But, of course, I AM often wrong.

Keep the faith.

Kis
:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the 'Le Flambe' stuff. No 'wavy-swords' pre-1066 in anycase, which certainly rules them out for Beowulf.

I had a thought, as I slowly crawl through bits and pieces of Behmer's book (the German makes it slow going for me, but at least accessible, if it hadn't been published in Swedish I'd be at rather a loss) - he classifies 'migration-period' sword mainly by handle-type, scabbard-type, &c., as the blades are rather similar.

However, one difference which turns up, though it cuts across Behmer's categories, is between swords with a ridge and swords with a fuller (or multiple fullers). What do people think of this as a possible distinction? Is it plausible that a sword with a 'diamond shape/ridge' would be named differently from a fullered-blade sword? Even if this is true, it doesn't immediately tell me which one would be the bil and which one the mece, but at least it seems a possibility.

cheers, B.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top