OT: Carbine rifles?

37up

37up

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Jun 16, 2002
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Hi!

Could some kind, patient person please explain to this fool what a carbine rifle is ?

am I even using the term correctly? Someone I know is starting the long, long road toward obtaining a certain license that carries a huge, unfair stigma and wants to keep things hush hush.
 
I should look it up. But I really think the term has come to mean any handy, short rifle. I will look it up later. There are many carbines for their time, that today are long and ungainly, so historical perspective counts too. I'm wondering if the term also mean 'repeater'; except when I think of the single shot British military arms I think those are called carbines too- the little Martinis.

munk
 
No one calls the M1 Garand a carbine, but the little 30 M1 carbine- yes.
The Illustrated Book of Guns says a Carbine is a short rifle lighter and handier than a full sized rifle.

munk
 
The definition on this one has changed a bit over the years. It's now pretty much a marketing term if you ask me.

As I understand it, the proper definition was supposed to have been a long gun firing a pistol caliber cartridge. Just who dreamed this up, or was expected to use it, is beyond me. Hardly anyone ever uses the term "carbine" strictly to describe this sort of weapon. I've seen it applied to everything slightly smaller than an M14 at one time or another.

Don't even get me started on first world militaries sawing off assault rifles and calling them submachineguns.
 
A carbine is a short rifle or a shorter version of a normally longer rifle,without regard to ammunition.The winchester lever-action rifles and carbines both used the same ammo.The actual diffenence between the two can sometimes be only a matter of a couple of inches.Also,..particulary regarding rifles and carbines from the same maker,there can be stylistic differences like the shape of the stock or butplate.
 
I'm voting for the Italian Calvary. The short long gun firing handgun cartridges is better described as a submachine gun.







munk
 
Submachine guns are defined as weapons featuring select fire and pistol caliber chamberings. They may or may not be small. Some have been quite large. Thus, submachine gun wouldn't be a proper description for a short long gun firing pistol cartridges in some cases - but it might be. Not that that would stop anyone from misusing the term, which brings us right along to...

Some things to ponder:

My Mechtech Glock upper is referred to as a carbine when installed. It is not a shorter version of an existing rifle. (It comes in one size only.) It fires a pistol cartridge. (.45 ACP.)

Dragoon and cavalry carbines of the 19th century were shorter versions of an existing rifles. They fired rifle cartridges, for the most part.

The M16 is referred to as a carbine in some military publications. It is not a shorter version of a parent rifle. (It is the parent rifle.) It fires a rifle cartridge. One could make an argument that it means "short rifle" in this case, not "shorter", but that wouldn't make sense; it's not a particularly short rifle and there are shorter rifles in existance that are not referred to as carbines.

We have three different meanings of carbine above. Which one is correct? All of them, depending on who you ask.

I can understand why Dave is confused. "Carbine" gets tossed around quite a bit. As I said, it's pretty much a marketing term at this point as far as I'm concerned, unless applied to 19th century cavalry and artillery rifles. I agree that that was the first use of the term. I disagree that it's the only way the term is used today.
 
Beats me.

Believe the lever action rifles had barrels of 24", 26" and up to 30" lengths, where the carbines had 18" or 20" barrels, some as short as my 16" Trapper. Don't think it matters much if it's rifle or pistol caliber.

Oddly, the revolver cartridges show a far greater improvement out of a carbine barrel than do the selfloading pistols. The 357 mag is reputed to measure up to the muzzle energy of a 30-30 when both are fired from 20" barrels, gaining between 400 and 500 fps over their revolver velocities. The 9mm gains only one to two hundred fps from a 16" barrel, and the 45 acp much less, sometimes losing velocity from a longer barrel.

Don't take this all that seriously - it's off the top of my head.
 
There is no criteria I'm aware of, Sat, that defines a carbine rifle as firing a pistol cartridge, as you stated earlier. The select fire sub machine gun comes closest to this, but is not a perfect description.


munk
 
Guys, the carbines were just shorter versions of the standard service rifle used by specialized troops. As an interesting note; often the bayonets for the carbine rifles was longer then the bayonet for the standard rifle, so that when in position the soldier would have the same reach irrespective of the weapon.

n2s
 
I seem to remember reading that the M1 carbine was meant to replace the 1911 pistol as a sidearm for truck drivers, tankers, pilots and officers. Basically, people who didnt shoot for a living but needed a self-defense weapon.

The term is an old one, and if you have never held a Mauser 8mm or an old Springfield 1903, the words "shorter and lighter" might not mean much.

Those rifles from WW1 were long and heavy and built like telephone poles.
What were they? 4 feet long and ten pounds?
Stand a 1903 next to an M1 carbine and the carbine part becomes very clear.
 
Rusty said:
The 9mm gains only one to two hundred fps from a 16" barrel, and the 45 acp much less, sometimes losing velocity from a longer barrel.

Don't take this all that seriously - it's off the top of my head.
Click to expand...

I have seen several studies of pistol rounds fired in carbine length barrels, and in every case where there was an expectation of higher velocities with the .9mm and .45 the opposite was always true for the .9mm and only a bit better if at all for the .45. That is, the .9 mm actually lost about 50 to 100 FPS in say a Marlin Camp Carbine, while the .45 would gain nothing or just nominally.

Many people who bought the .9 mm Camp Carbine and were expecting super performance out of the cartridge in that configuration were disappointed, and were actually better off sticking with a pistol for the best ballistic performance. The old UZI carbine gave another example of this loss of power, as do AR and M-16 uppers chambered for the .9mm.

WRT the .45 only, I experimented with this when reloading .45 ACP using Unique (5.5 grains) and firing in both a 5" 1911 and a Camp Carbine. I used 230 gr. ball RN FMJ in both loads. Unique is a great pistol powder for the .45, but I found that I could get better velocities and functionality out of the Camp Carbine by using slower burning Blue Dot specifically for that arm, and loading it up to near max, or to about 8.7 grains. Out of the 16.5" barrel the Blue Dot, as expected, burned much cleaner and gave some really nice hard hitting loads.

Regards,

Norm
 
Satori said:
The M16 is referred to as a carbine in some military publications. It is not a shorter version of a parent rifle. (It is the parent rifle.)
Click to expand...

I've never seen that before, could it be that you're referrng to M-4 ? ("carbine version of M-16/AR-15")

That would make sense.
 
I thought the m16 was referd to as a rifle and the m4a1 as a carbine.

One interesting line of rifles that is applicable to this thread is the Lee Enfield. There is actually a couple of these (not sure which variant) for $160 at gi joes.

Originally a blackpowder rifle in 1889 they went to the "Short, magazine, Lee Enfield" (short refers to rifle length, not magazine) or the SMLE in 1903. During wwI germans sometimes thought they were under mg fire due to salvo firing techniques with "volly sights" that could be dialed between 2000 and 3900 yards (quite effective against tight infantry and calvalry). In 1941 they modified the design to make it a little shorter and a little heavier. At the end of WWII when the british were fighting in SE asia they found that the "short" design was not short enough and made the "jungle carbine". The WWII variant was 1129mm while the "jungle carbine" was 1003mm.
 
Dave, I think you got your question answered...

Norm, tx for the Marlin Camp Carbine reloading info. No +P ammo should be used, IIRC, because the bullet has yet left the barrel when the pressure peaks... A slow burning powder optimizes the load to that oddball 18" .45 ACP barrel. Mine gets so dirty so fast... book says must strip down to clean every 200 rnds.

By any def., that one is a carbine! :D

And don't let your friend get a M-1 .30 cal. carbine. What an anemic round. Better off with a .22. In the Battle of the Bulge, where typists, drivers, cooks, etc. were pressed into repelling the German attack (using that crappy weapon-substitute), I've read first hand where attackers were hit again & again- and kept coming.


Ad Astra :footinmou (knows everything because he can read) :rolleyes:
 
Seems like pistol rounds could be loaded to perform better in longer barrels - slower burning powders. Load for bullet and barrel length. Does some manufactuer make 9mm or .45 ACP carbine rounds?

(I found the "hard way" that I wa firing .357 rounds designed to work in a 6" barrel in my first .357 revolver, 4" barrel model. The flash was OUTSTANDING! Turns out, some of the powder was going off outside the barrel because the barrel was too short for the loading. Went to a 6". MUCH less flash and different sound.)
 
faramir said:
I've never seen that before, could it be that you're referrng to M-4 ? ("carbine version of M-16/AR-15")

That would make sense.
Click to expand...

The original carbine version of the 20" AR-15 was the CAR-15. The first with the telescoping stock, 16" barrel and shorty handguards. Nice setup.

Norm
 
Some older rifles had very long barrels (29-30 inches) so that a 23 inch barrel became "short" and a carbine. There was very little muzzle flash out of a 29" barrel.

I get about 1200 or 1250 for 158 gr. 357 mag ammo out of a 4" revolver, but about 1750-1800 fps out of a Marlin 357 carbine.
I found that the 125 grainers gave me almost 2100 fps out of the carbine, but 1400-1500 out of revolvers.
A 38 special 129 gr. that gives you about 950-1050 out of a revolver, gave me 1250 fps out of the Marlin, with almost no blast or recoil. I got close to 357 mag power from the carbine with 22 rimfire recoil.
 
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