OT / gun advice requested

gravertom

gravertom

Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
1,163
here is my situation-

After reading Mrostov's thread on packing with guns, etc. it got me thinking.

Most of my guns, except my Chipmunk, are way too heavy.

Also, living where I do, a handgun permit to purchase and carry is a year away. I am thinking about adopting the two long gun method for emergency survival situation packing, or even just for camping, etc. A lever action carbine and the chipmunk appeal to me, as i want something more than a .223. I have the Chipmunk. The only cebterfire rifles I have are all Swiss WWII and earlier military rifles. This means heavy and obscure caliber. I could convert one or more of the already sporterized ones to .308 or .30-30 without too much trouble. Don't know if i could get them to 6 lbs empty though.

I like the straight pull action, but it is not as packable as the lever action.

Also, the home defense consideration. Currently, a 20 ga youth model with rifled barrel serves in this role. We live in a townhouse, with more across the street. I don't keep slugs in it at home. I haven't had my wife shoot it yet. I don't think she will be comfortable shooting it, but we will have to see.

I am thinking about selling it and putting the money toward a lever action. I favour winchester, just because I like the way they handle. I think in some ways the Marlin may be a better quality gun, but the Winchester is my preference anyway.

For hunting purposes, rifles do not apply except at some distance away from home. I think I could get by with a 20 ga single shot for hunting. Getting a smoothbore barrel for my pump would cost close to $200, from what I have seen. Until I can afford a decent double gun, I would rather hunt with a single barrel over a pump, considering the extra expense in my situation.

So, do I get the 410 lever for small game, with buckshot and slugs for the home? Do I go with the 45 colt for the home and the outdoors? Do I go with the 30-30, and use cowboy loads (lead bullet, lower power) at home, and have the greater punch for future hunting trips/ survival situations? Or, do I just convert one of my swiss rifles, and be content with what I have?

I am thinking of the leverguns because at least two of my boys look to be left handed shooters in the making. Ultimately, I will probably get more than one, but what advice do any of you have as to which one should be first? First consideration is for the home, manageable for my wife. One reason to consider the 410, even of not at first, is the advantage of handling the action type in the hunting field, to get more familiarity time with it. I could shoot clay brids too, and get very comfortable that way, i would think.

This may not be ideal sounding to some, but my shooting time is very limited, so maximizing time with one action type seems like a good idea to me. The more i can handle a lever gun in more situations, the better.

Am I totally gonzo here?

Cost is somewhat of a factor, although I am considering selling some of my swiss rifles if necessary.

One other fanciful thought I had was getting a mini 14 and converting it to a straight pull. I have a fair amount of shooting time with my straight pulls, so that might help the familiarity thing, and maybe make it a bit lighter too. I still would like a bigger bore.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, if you can get through the big ramble!

Take care,

Tom
 
Tom, you pose an interesting set of rules. #1 please do not ever get a 410 for hunting or for training. It will frustrate the h3ll out of the shooter because of the tiny shot charge it throws. Not good. A 20ga is much better even if its a single shot. I know that money is tight but really consider the lever action in 45 Colt. Its good enough for defense and to train your boys with. Later a LA 30-30 might be a good buy. Try to handle both the Marlin and the Win LA's. The Marlin is much better built and you can scope it if you want to. I could write for much longer but I have to leave shortly. More knowledgable men than I will be speaking up. Good luck.

Ice
 
Tom?

Gut reaction from hunter with limited knowledge.

Until .410 shells get cheap again, forget it. Just not worth the investment.

Don't sell anything. Unless you hate the gun, you will regret selling it.

Go used, from a small shop if you can.

I made a scout rifle from a guardia civila .308...light, cheap, and with length added to the stock and with a recoil pad, perfect for me.

All the lever threads I've seen seem to be influenced by the cowboy shooters, and many...very many...seem to go with a .357 lever carbine. Dunno. Might be an advantage if you have a .357 handgun. Dunno.

There's a reason that the over-whelming majority of lever guns were once made in 30-30. Less recoil, easy sight plane, quick handling, ammunition available almost everywhere for about $9.00 for 20 rounds.

Twenty gauge home gun, with recoil pad should be fine. Others will disagree. I drilled a hole in the pistol grip and keep a second shell jammed in there. Two shots better than one. Number sixes are a great home defense load. Used to be cops like #4 buck. Dunno. I wouldn't use a rifle in home defense in an urban area, or with other family members in the house.

For some reason, lever guns seem less intimidating to other folks. Every thread seems to have some majority favoring the Marlin, but I like the looks of the Winchester--personal choice.

But MOST of the other folks here have used many more and a greater variety of guns than I have.

Good luck.

How're Mom and the baby?
 
I highly recommend a 16" Winchester 94 or Marlin 1894 in 45 Colt or 44 Magnum for your primary all-purpose lever carbine. Then later you can add a S&W double-action or Ruger/Beretta/Navy Arms/other single-action revolver as a companion sidearm. My preference is for the Marlin. I've owned Winchester 94s, but everything since the 80s is loosey-goosey / hit-and-miss for quality. For an indication, when selecting a lever, set the buttplate on the top of your shoe and sight from the muzzle back to the receiver. Pay attention to alignment of the front and rear sights. The front sights on lever guns, and Winnys in particular, are like as not canted to one side or the other. Used 30-30s are a dime a dozen, and for a tight budget I'd go that way instead of a pistol caliber, but with a Marlin for sure. Used levers in 45 Colt or 44 Magnum are harder to find and usually retain more value. 30-30 ammo is available EVERYWHERE in the US.

For the shotgun role, the 410 is appealing due to light recoil, but you have to be accurate with shot placement, and use the largest shot size that you can find. Pay attention to chamberings -- I know that the Marlin 410 is chambered for 2-1/2" 410 shells, and the Winchester may or may not be chambered for 3" shells. The 410 with as large shot size as you can find is nothing to sneeze at for home defense. OTOH, if you go with 410 slugs, you might as well save your money and use the 45 Colt/44 Magnum lever with 45 Colt cowboy or mild 44 Magnum or 44 Special rounds because a 410 slug is equivalent to them.

That suggests opting away from a 410, and going with a 20 ga shotgun. My preference would be a used Ithaca 37 because it likely has no disconnector -- hold the trigger back, work the pump handle, and point. Ithaca 20s are kinda hard to find, and are more prevalent in the northeast. No matter, the Rem 870 is tried and true, as is the Mossburg 500/590. The Mossy is available with a pistol grip, but they are TOUGH to control in recoil when trying to make a follow-up shot. For a woman that's not a bodybuilder, forget the pistol grip shotty. The Russian made AK-based Saiga semi-auto shotty is a real nice piece, and value priced too. They have detachable box magazines holding like 4 rounds each, and offer the fast rate of a semi-auto action. Some states (like PA) do not allow hunting with semi-auto shotguns or rifles, so check your local listings. The Saiga is offered in 410, 20, and 12 ga, but may be hard to find right now because European American Armory recently ceased importing them, and a new outfit called Russian American Armory (or something like that) is picking up the import agreement and working on import permits.

Personally, whoever makes it, I'd go with a 20 ga. fed with #2 bird shot, BB shot, or #4 Buck at the largest. Any of the three have all the penetration you need for soft targets, and none of the penetration you don't want for walls and such. And everybody that's going to use it, DRILL with it.

The other option which fits the survival mode better than the home defense mode is a Savage 24 combo gun, which were a rifle barrel over a shotgun barrel in many different configs, from 22LR over 410 to 30-30 over 12 ga., and 22 Hornet, 222 Rem and 223 Rem as other rifle chamber options, and 410, 20, 16, and 12 ga shotty tubes offered. Problem: Savage doesn't make it anymore, and used ones are in high demand at about $350 going rate. Downside: You have two single-shots in one, and have to flip the firing pin lever to select between rifle or shotgun barrel. Versatile for sure hunting shots, but no good for follow-up hunting or self defense shots.

HTH,

Noah
 
Thanks Guys.

had forgotten about the saiga. Interesting choice. Will check on NY hunting laws. 20ga slugs are ok for deer.

OK, I will re consider Marlin, but the Win always seems to work easier for me.

One possibilty is selling the 870, then getting the mossberg combo set. About 260 at WM.

yes, I have regretted selling many, many guns. let me count the ways!!

Mannlicher mca carbine .243, Ruger red label. Garand i rebuilt in gunsmithing school, etc. etc. yada yada...

Mom is doing well, baby is coming along, gaining weight, growing a bit. Starting to make some baby noises, and smiles at me sometimes! getting used to his extra "maintenance". developing new routines... :)

I don't kow why, i just don't like this little 870. The only pump gun I ever liked was an Ithaca 37, in 20 ga.

You guessed it, I sold it!

Oh well, thanks for the input. More is welcome.

take care,

Tom
 
A quick word from a very satisfied Saiga-12 owner:

Great gun. Accurate, extremely simple to care for, and hasn't malfunctioned since I purchased it several years ago. Set the gas system for light loads and forget about it. Clean it if you're bored.

The magazines are plastic, overpriced (when available), and hold five rounds. I can stomp on them without damaging them. (By comparison, I stomped a steel ammunition can into a crumpled ball today and I can stomp M-16 magazines completely flat. Saiga mags are tough.) They're tricky to load with the bolt forward. Unless you purchase one of the Saigas with a manual bolt hold-open (a feature not native to Kalashnikovs), you'll need to develop the technique. It takes a bit of practice but is not difficult once you get the hang of it. When you've got it, you can maintain a respectable rate of fire.

Also bear in mind that they come with the siderail for Russian-style optics. I can think of many ways to mount glass on a shotgun. This is the least painful by far. Probably not needed, but think of it as expandibility.

I took mine to work recently and had the boys work it over with some 00 buck. The two prevailing comments were...

"It's so accurate! It hits what I aim at!" (Rifle sights and a full choke will do that for ya, especially when you're used to the Mossberg riot guns.)

"It doesn't kick! It doesn't kick!" (Welcome to the world of gas-operated shotguns.)

The low price is icing on the cake. If only those darned mags were a little less expensive...

If you can only have one, you can do far worse than one of these. Far worse. Pumps have their uses but whenever someone tells me that they're looking for a semiauto, I recommend the humble Saiga.
 
Until you find another Ithaca 37, I would go with an adult stock on what you have. Your current shotgun is near perfect for the living conditions you describe....and I strongly suspect the undefined 'something' you don't like about the current 870 is the fact a youth stock doesn't fit right. One trip to a gun show and $20 should fix that...and a single large screw is a home job.

As a second step, go to a range and pattern your rifled barrel with several kinds of shot....my guess is that past 20 yards it won't pattern well. No problem for home defense, but again the fix is easy. All 870 barrels are truly interchangable as long as you don't stick a magnum chambered barrel on a standard receiver. Again, gun show plain barrel $45, or ribbed barrel (recommended) maybe $65.....don't be afraid to dicker on price.

Now, at a time when you and your wife are just starting out, you haven't spent near as much... and not necessarily at one time....easier on the budget! And, short of bear or elk, good for near anything you want to hunt, since you now have the choice of 2 barrels... Wait for the handgun. ;)
 
The lever is an assault weapon of a different time. I own three of them. I like them. You could get one in 44 mag, or 30/30, or even a 35.

They are wonderful for deer and black bear, and mean people. They're cheap, handy, smooth, and chambered in some pretty substancial rounds like the 45/70


munk
 
For the first ten years of my marriage, I had two long guns (1) .30/30 Winchester 94 which I still have, and (2) an L.C. Smith double barrel 12 guage (sold for college books). For me, that was a go anywhere, do anything battery. Five kids came pretty quickly, and it was a few years before I had the disposable income to acquire more. I now have several fairly expensive bolt actions and 4 Ruger#1's, but the little .30/30 is still one of my favorites. I didn't even own a .22 LR until I was 38! If you're going to buy more, decide what you most like to hunt and pick a tool for the job....Kids come first..God Bless.
 
Dear Gravertom,

All this advice is good. Lots of different angles. So I am throwing in my 2 cents.

The 20 is fine for at home...look for Fedral Low Recoil Shot loads...even your wife won't have a problem with them...I personally stay away from slugs for personal defense as my gauge is only a "house gun"...a good recoil pad will make all the difference...watch out for the trigger guard if you are shooting full house loads...it can bite...

The 44 mag idea in a levergun and a handgun...will serve both a defense and hunting role no sweat...very good ammo is available for both situations...If you go that way...I would suggest the scout set up...(which I love)...with a Leupold Scout scope with detchable mounts...and ghost ring sights...

Calibers and cartidges are fun to talk about...but the load..and the projectile make so much more of a difference... Nowadays there are some pretty effective rounds being made for personal defense...buy the best for personal defense...do not scrimp here...

I'm gonna preach here a bit...

If you take up a weapon for any purpose...especially defense...commit to it.
Dedicate a portion of your time/budget to go to the range...and do some work.Having it in the closet is not enough. I know a lot of folks who have shotguns somewhere in their homes who have never pulled a trigger. They load with full blown 3" mag loads in 00 Buck and figure they are set for the "Boogerman". They have not done the math. They do not understand that those loads will shoot through those sheet rock walls and destroy anything on the other side.

The "footwork" is so much more important than what gun you buy.

That being said, I applaud your fact finding mission on this thread. These guys are tops for information on this kind of stuff. And...I believe they also "walk the walk".

Let us know what you decide.

Good Luck,
Shane
 
Not sure if anybody here reads it...

In the September issue of Combat Handguns..in the It Happened To Me section the first story by "SJ,WY" is me...they called it.."Older and not so lucky."

It's about the first time I was held at gunpoint.

Not a bad read...so I am told. (Frankly,it still gives me the willies.)

Not trying to HiJack the thread..but since we are talking aobut guns and defense..I will throw it in...just for gravy.

Shane
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
I now have several fairly expensive bolt actions and 4 Ruger#1's,
Click to expand...

Do you like the #1's? I have always wanted one of the "international" ie Mannlicher, ones that they make in 7X57. Is accuracy pretty good? I was at a gun store pondering this and the guy there said he thought the model 77's were better shooters but I can't help but think that the #1's would be.

Speaking of guns- I'm going to pick up my .30 carbine Ruger Blackhawk this evening off of layaway. Picked up 100 rounds of ammo at lunch and stopped along the road on the way home and picked up about 10 tin cans ;) Nothing like a little gunplay to wind down a Friday!
 
Accuarcy on Ruger number ones has been reported to be problematic. If yours shoots, hooray; if not, there are a variety of modifications to do to assist. The 77 is a mauser type action and is very accurate.

I've always wanted a Number One also- in 375 HH.

munk
 
I used to own a Browning Stainless Stalker in 375. It was accurate, but annoying in that every 4 shots the trigger guard wanted to rattle off. I sold it to make some quick cash to help a friend out.

I'd love a Ruger 375. Now, there's optimum use of that short action. If you have one shot, why not make it a powerful one?

Always wanted a 257 too. Hell, I want 'em all!


munk
 
munk said:
I used to own a Browning Stainless Stalker in 375. It was accurate, but annoying in that every 4 shots the trigger guard wanted to rattle off. I sold it to make some quick cash to help a friend out.

I'd love a Ruger 375. Now, there's optimum use of that short action. If you have one shot, why not make it a powerful one?

Always wanted a 257 too. Hell, I want 'em all!


munk
Click to expand...


"I want 'em all" Great line. Me too. Not fair that we can't have 'em all, but then what would we wish for :mad:
 
munk said:
I've always wanted a Number One also- in 375 HH.

munk
Click to expand...
Dropped by a local ammo outlet store(they don't stock guns, but will order them). One of the women who works there brought in her deceased husbands gun collection to sell. I was drooling over the old Ruger #1 in .375 H&H :eek: . It had a 4x weaver on it. Nice rifle. She also had a S&W 29 with a full lug 5" barrel and unflutted cylinder :eek: . I left the store with an ammo price list :(
 
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