OT / gun advice requested

This is a pretty good article/thread on the levergun:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=649

Early this year I bought a marlin in .357 to match my GP100. I always carry this setup when going on trips or back in the woods. I wanted a rifle that would not scare the sheeple. I was considering a 30-30 for more power and longer range. But the 357 can come close to some 30-30 loads, it is the same caliber as my handgun, and it carries about double the ammunition in the same size rifle.

If I did not already have a 357, I may have gone with the 44 Mag. Carries about double what the 30-30 can and will hit hard. You can use 44 special for lower recoil/power and may carry 1 more cartridge in the magazine(my marlin can hold one more 38 special over the 357 cartridges).
 
Thanks for all the good advice.

That was a good link Logan, thanks!

Shane, good preaching. We had gone through some walk throughs at our house in NC before we moved. We owned handguns then, plus the houses were more spread out. A high powered rifle wasn't too silly there.

Over the years, i have done some handgun and rifle shooting, but almost no shotgun shooting. Time to get busy.

I had spent some time at the range with my swiss rifles, and felt ok using them in NC. easy to manipulate, quick to reload, and I had practiced with it, some military matches, etc.. The wife was to grab the GP100 and cover my back. No more GP100 right now. Without the permit, can't even keep what I already owned.

The job and benefits were worth the move though! (the great winters, too! :D )

Can't seem to track down a Saiga 20 so far, and the 12's listed at some places seem pretty steep.

For now, will work with the 20ga 870 some more. Will look for a smooth barrel cheap at a gun show, etc.

If necesary, will just get a single for small game hunting.

I think that the 30-30 is the way I will go in a light rifle. Since it won't be primarily for home defense, the overpenetration doesn't worry me. I like the flatter trajectory and greater retained energy at the plus 100 yard zone.

If we had to high tail it away from some sub urban disaster, I would probably grab it and the pack with the Chipmunk and go.

Also, the 30-30 seems easier to get for a lower price than the guns in the revolver cartridge chamberings, and 30-30 ammo has to be among the most ubiquitous, at this point.

IF a saiga 20 turns up, may still go that route, and sell the 870.

Thanks again all!

Tom
 
Have fun, Tom.

For what it is worth, the two guys I hunt with always bring their 870s when we hunt. They have a lot of other options, but....


Be well and safe.
 
Tom,
The latest Brownell's catalogue lists extended magazines for the 20 Ga. 870 as a new item. I'm thinkin'...
I love mine and am pleased with the positive feedback on this too neglected scattergun in this thread. Oh, this is a site for khukuris... :rolleyes:
 
870 neglected!! We'll have to change that. It is America's favorite pump shotgun. The after market accesories go on forever. And you don't need to be a gunsmith to alter the arm.

Always wanted one, never owned one. For what I use a pump for, the Mossberg is fine. Actually, I'd like a military Mossberg. It's heavier than even the 870, but what a reassuring feel!!


munk
 
Hey, Tom. Glad to hear mom and baby are doing well.

I generally like Marlins better than Winchesters, because I like the action better, and I think they're a bit stronger. It is easier to find certain caliber/barrel combination from Winchester, though.
I like .45 Colt, and I had a Winchester Colt Trapper that got sold off to Byron as part of my fund-raising Super-FAL drive a while back, but unless you have some reason to specifically get the .45 (such as a companion revolver), I'd get another caliber, such as .357, .44, or .30-30. .357 might actually be an ideal choice, since it gives the option of a short carbine for defense or close deer-sized game, while also giving a cheap shooter when using .38 Special ammo (and versatility, in being able to use more than one caliber ammo, when t SHTF and the zombies come).
I have personally gone almost exclusively to Remington Reduced Recoil Slugs in my shotguns, for both deer and defensive usage. I think if you check out slug tests in ballistic gelatin, you'll find that slugs- especially Foster-type reduced-power/recoil slugs- are not actually as overpenetrative as most think. I am fond of the Mossberg 500 with ghost-ring sights; these sights give both speed and accuracy. You may want to test that 870 for patterning before getting rid of it. From what I've heard, rifling in shotgun barrels tends to make very wide patterns when using shot. Again, since I'd probably be using reduced-recoil slugs anyway, this probably wouldn't be an issue.
I now far prefer rifles when defense is an issue, as well as in most situations when hunting (big game, at least). There is no arguing, however, that the 12-gauge shotgun is the most versatile firearm on the planet. With proper distancing and ammo selection, virtually any land animal on the planet can be hunted, and ammunition can be found anywhere that sells ammo (in the US, at least).
One day I will have a Saiga-12. Everthing Satori says about the Saiga dovetails with what my friend Larry Correia has said. He wrote an article a few months ago on the Saiga in SWAT, if you can find it. I've seen them for as little as just over $300 in GA.
The .410 is often touted and used as a beginner's gun, but it is not. It does have very little recoil, but also throws a ludicrously light charge. It is an expert's toy.
Don't take hearsay when it comes to bullet performance. Believe what you have actually tested yourself, or tests results that you've seen photographic evidence of, in properly calibrated gel (you can tell if properly calibrated by penetration depth of a .177 caliber projectile at a specified speed. If the tester does not mention the .177 pen test, it's impossible to know if the gel has been correctly prepared). A lot of things that people "know" about bullet performance are wrong. I have had some people claim, for instance, that it was irresponsible to use a rifle for home defense, because of all the people that would be killed after my bulleted exited the perp.
After testing, I know that with at least one round (Federal Am Eagle 50-grain HP), penetration in a person would be significantly less than a variety of handgun defensive rounds.

Okay, I'm sure I'm rambling, and I need sleep. Best of luck.

John
 
Spectre said:
The .410 is often touted and used as a beginner's gun, but it is not. It does have very little recoil, but also throws a ludicrously light charge. It is an expert's toy.

John
Click to expand...
Uwinv I most certainly agree!!!! You have to take your time and *aim* with a .410. I had an old Iver Johnson tight full choke that was stolen from me that had belonged to the old man. Many's the time I've seen him step off a hundred paces to pick up a rabbit he had shot with it.:eek: Fifty paces was an offhand shot and more common.:D
It was difficult to hit a moving target with it for me, I almost always missed but the old man almost always hit, but then he had a helluva lot more practise with it than I had.
I don't think I was even 18 yet when it was stolen when we were moving out of an apartment. I know the old bastard got it but couldn't prove it, could tell from the look in his eyes.
 
Thanks again guys.

John, has the DOD given you the same answer twice on anything yet?!

;)

I switched to my K31 (.308 equivalent ballistics at less chamber pressure) for my primary gun at home after reading some articles about handgun "inadequacy" in "stopping" power. Also, I read some articles touting the .223 as not being the overpenetrating hazard that many thought it was. I haven't been comfortable with the K31 up here, due to the tight quarters though. I had some pretty safe fields of fire down in NC. Plus, it was the only type of centerfire rifle I had. I tried the spanish mauser in .308. Too awkward for me.

Gun fit, esp. "feel" are hugely important to me. Working with hand tools every day, having been a drummer and a fencer over the years, how an implement fits my hand , (or shoulder) after reliabilty, is my number one consideration.

very few handguns fit me well. i don't want any "fumble' factor if I need it in a hurry. Same with a long gun. K31's fit me well, short LOP, easy to operate bolt handle, easier to keep on the shoulder while reloading, easy to reload the mag with the issue 6 round chargers.

Although I acknowledge a certain mechanical, and cosmetic superiority to the Marlin leverguns, the Winchester just works for me better. I picked up an early 1900's saddle ring carbine off the rack at work. It was perfect to my shoulder. If it wasn't 900 bucks, I would have taken it home!

I hate to say it, and mean no offence to Marlin afficianados, but the Marlin is the club to the Winchester Katana, for my build and preferences.(mostly talking 336 v 94 here. The Marlin 1894 is a diffrent story, but only comes in pistol calibers, IIRC)

John, I am coming around on the rifle thing too. Other than concealability, the handgun has less and less interest for me (from a utility standpoint, that is! I still think that they are cool, and concealability is no small thing!) I certainly will carry a handgun again someday, but If I am required to attend a shoot out, I pray I have a rifle, great cover, and lots of friends on the way.

Now that thngs are calming down, I am finding some places to shoot, and will get busy with the 20.

Bri, thanks for the tip on the mag extension. Once I start using this gun on a regular basis, I am sure I will be glad I kept it.

I keep praying that other than the reacreational value, this will remain a very exclusively academic subject for me...

my conclusions remain-

keep the 870 and work with it
get a Winchester 30-30 at the earliest opportunity.
consider a Saiga in the future
save my pennies for an excellent handgun in about a year or so.
work on the "footwork"
involve the whole family(as appropriate) in learning to deal with various emergency scenarios
learn how to fish!!

Thanks!

Tom
 
Oops, I meant to say that the 870 20 gauge has been neglected, not the venerable and revered 870 model in general. :o
 
gravertom said:
I switched to my K31 (.308 equivalent ballistics at less chamber pressure) for my primary gun at home after reading some articles about handgun "inadequacy" in "stopping" power.
Click to expand...

Tom, I'm going to go on record here (and possibly anger some) by saying that your K31 should be shifted to other duties when you can manage it.

I've got two of them myself. Nice rifles, and an absolute steal at the price they're going for nowadays. (Folks, this is a $180 straight pull bolt action that typically shoots like a $800 one and has historical significance. Yes, it's in an odd caliber, but if you load your own our .308" bullets work fine.) The main impression I got from mine is the one I got from the Springfield '03 - the original one, not the later modifications - it was a match rifle issued to a military that wasn't doing a lot of fighting at the time. Not a good thing, not a bad thing, but that's my impression. It would not be my first choice for defending my home. It would certainly take precedance over plenty of other things.

Disclaimer to follow my statement: if it shoots, and you can shoot it, you're doing pretty well already. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

Saiga, handgun, whatever: try before you buy if you can. You'd be surprised at how quickly some folks pick up the techniques for certain firearms and have problems with others; even experienced shooters will aquire certain traits, and lose others, if they shoot a certain kind of firearm exclusively for a while. In an ideal world there will be a gunstore near you with an indoor range where you can test drive the products. See if it works for you before you drop the money on it. Even the weapons that're known as being easy to shoot don't work for everyone.

One final note on Russian firearms: they're typically very underpriced and overpriced, all at the same time. I got my Saiga a couple of years ago for $240, plus tax. It didn't cost Izhmash even a quarter of that to produce but it was a bargain all the same. I didn't see it as the Russians ripping me off; I saw it as getting an accurate, reliable semiautomatic shotgun for less than what Benelli charges.

It helps if you perceive the worth of a weapon, and not the monetary value. Kalashnikovs are inexpensive to produce by design, but it does not mean that they're cheap. On the same note, a nice Hammerli pistol is worth a couple of grand to a competitive shooter but is not worth nearly as much to me. (My 10/22 knocks holes in beer cans just fine, and that is what I use .22's for.)
 
Good Stuff Satori.

I have relegated the K31 to target shooting at this point. I love the gun, love the Swiss 1911 even more, but they are not too practical to tote.

having said that, If I had to get up in the middle of the night tonight and lead my family to safety, the k31 and some chargers are what I will take with me.

Hope to change that soon!

I really like Russian weapons. I hated to sell my Makarov before I moved. I have always been a fan of robust, reliable things that cost less than they might if made by a "name" company.

Thanks again!

Tom
 
Graverton - If you like the lever action Winchester over the Marlin, IMHO get the Trapper with the 16" barrel, it's one of the handiest rifles I've ever toted around. Myself, I prefer Marlins.

As for the caliber, before you buy something in a pistol caliber, check with the local laws. Some localities with silly handgun restriction laws also have odd laws restricting sales of centerfire handgun ammo unless you can show a pistol permit.

Myself, I'd get the .30-30 as you can find ammo for it anywhere and it's a very versatile and powerful round.

For home defense, get a pump shotgun, like the Remington 870, in 12ga or 20ga, and get some decent loads for it that won't over penetrate.

One thing you can also look at if you get a single shot shotgun for hunting, like you had mentioned, is that you can get subcaliber inserts that drop into the shotgun barrel that allow you to shoot a variety of calibers. Legally these subcaliber inserts are not normally considered firearms.

http://www.mcace.com/

BTW - If the gun laws in NY get to you too much, look into Arizona's gun laws.

In AZ you need permits only for carrying concealed and the permit is good for anything which suits you at any given moment - including knives and machineguns (BATF tax stamp required for machineguns, silencers, etc). You can openly carry in city or rural areas - loaded and ready to rock - on your person or in your car with no permit. No firearms allowed where posted or in banks, bars, government offices, or polling places.

Unfortunately, explosives do not count as a legal CCW weapon, so no grenades. However, you can privately buy explosives and blasting caps here with just a driver's license (last time I checked), you just can't use them as weapons. They did change the law somewhat that you need a certified and bonded transporter to deliver to your property ready to go explosives like dynamite and det-cord, but 2 component explosives like Kinepak you can carry home yourself.

You also need no permits or mandatory waiting periods to buy firearms from a Federally licensed dealer provided that you can pass the Federally mandated instant background check. You can also buy and sell out of the newspaper and private ads here with private sales and no background checks.

NFA/Class3 weapons like 20mm Lahti cannons, silencers, machineguns, 40mm M203 grenade launchers, sawed off shotguns, etc, take about 18 weeks or more for the Feds to process the paperwork. NFA/Class3 weapons can only be bought and sold through Federally licensed dealers approved for such weapons.
 
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