OT: Help/Suggestions appreciated.

R

richardallen

Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Messages
1,101
Recently, I found a bong in my bro's room. I wasn't even sneaking around or something, just looking for a CD of mine. He must've bought it recently, cause he'd left the package on the floor which caught my eye.

As for the problem - I'm 20 now, soon going to study some place else but as of right now, I'm still living with my parents. I smoke occasionally as well, started somewhat around 17. Occasionally, that is 1-2 a month. My parents once pretty much caught me in the act, it wasn't a pleasant experience. Lot's of fights and bad mood for about 2 weeks. So, to get to the point, I dont really see a problem in smoking weed, it's just the age that bothers me. he's 15, legally he isn't even allowed to buy a freaking beer (which he would be at 16).

As for now, I took the bong away. I dont really want to tell me parents, to save him some trouble, but on the other hand he simply doesn't seem to get that he is probably still to young (that's how I see it). He simply demands it back, and considering the situation he's in he's also pretty arrant the way I see it.

So, any suggestions on this one ? Do I see things too conservative ? I start to feel like my parents somehow, so I don't know. It just doesn't seem right to me at that age.

thanks, keno
 
1) Do you think he's harming himself by smoking (anything) at his age?
2) Do you think your parents would want to know?
 
Based upon half a life spent misused, I am concerned. Some people merely pass out of this 'phase', but with many others, it becomes a lifestyle replacing growing up and accomplishing neat things- like wood working, reading, sports, computers- you name it. The things you do in enjoyment of life. Without a base for these activites, a young person may find themself completely marooned within a few short years. So I'd want to talk to this kid. How are his grades? His relationships? A bong does not denote casual use.

just my two cents.

munk
 
While it may seem hypocritical to him, esp. if he knew you smoked, perhaps some talking can come from you. Your council he will keep, moreso than some non-interested party who will push the hard line. This is also your chance to broach the subject of harder, more dangerous drugs, like meth, cocaine, opiates, etc. If he can understand that you are sincere and supportive, it may go a long way fer a kid in his 'rebel' years.

The bong could be some sort of 'right of passage' in the drug subculture, or perhaps he wants a cleaner way to smoke (water filtration removes much of the nasty stuff, saving yer lungs). Still, the avg smoker probly needs little more than a bat-n-box, or some rolling papers. Back in the day, we got a kick outta making smoking implements outta stuff from the hardware, store, which (if examined or confiscated) woud not look like a 'bong' or 'pipe.'

When an ex-vet ex-hippie friend of mine found his daughter getting 'interested' in weed, he took the educator role, and even later was the 'baby sitter' for her whe she wanted to try some hallucinogens. He used his experience to guide her and keep her away from dangerouns situations involving drugs. He figgered that if she was gonna do this stuff, she should have a controlled env. as opposed to getting dosed at a party and getting trapped inn a bad sit with bat folks. She is now a mother of two, smokes only occasionally, and seems to be doing well for a single mom (she divorced her Marine husband, he came back quite addicted to cocaine, which was readily available on the streets of any major Iraqi city--she didn't want that crap or him in the house like that)

Let him know the signs of 'addiction' (read withdrawal from stuff due to heavy use), and let him know that mum and dad know them too. If he can balance it with his other life things, then hey. If things fall out of balance (pretty easy fer a 15 yr old) then it's time to talk. The worst thing I think that some MJ will cause is some lung damage, perhaps instil a lack of drive--which is the nastiest part.

My personal exp. with such didn't even get started til college. When may grades slipped a semester, I got rid of the paraphernailia in a dumpster and reapplied meself. Sure I've had a hit from the bud since then, but moderation must govern these things. Most drugs are killers, prescription or otherwise. also, most folks don't really have the capacity or headspace to experience drugs in a recreational fashion, and should avoid them. I kinda preach anti-drug as a rule, keeps folks outta trouble, but I do not fight to keep prohibition.

Have your parents had any drug experiences? Did they know that you smoked? If not, they will preach tha hard line, which may or may not help. As a person who has experimented pharmaceutically b4, I'd say anything a non-user says abt drugs is suspect--you can't tell what psilocibin is like if ya aint had it, like ya can't talk about the hardships of combat unless you've been there. Since you've 'been there, done that' I think he will listen to you. I had a similar talk with me bro when he becan a-wonderin. He and I are pretty moderate folk, cautious even with alcohol use (we have had alcoholism in the family, as close as our Grandfather, so we're moderates), so we did the same fer the other stuff. We're also educated and have hi IQs, with wisdom to match and a headfull of science and research skills.

As a general rule, I'm against habitual usage of any drug. The drug that I want to purge from me system currently is one accepted by The System, and that is Tobacco. The nicotine addiction is a nasty one! I've tried many drugs and NEVER had an addiction, due to moderate use. Try to use tobacco moderately, tho. That first pack of cigs is insidious.

Just some blathering. Take what you like, and throw the rest away.

Keith
 
My first post here. Dont want to sound too harsh or absolute but,
If you could just see some of what I have seen in close to thirty years of
law enforcement you would feel as strongly about drug usage as I do.
Drugs are a silent creeping invisible killer. They take your life away one slice at a time, all the while convincing you that you have control. They kill your life your family and your future.

Nothing you do is without consequence.

Throw away the bhong, and yours and his stash, take your brother down to
the nearest Alcohol and Drug Rehabilitation clinic to witness the guys that lay around in the beds waiting for the next round of the addiction cycle to hit them. Then try to find their families ( or the wrecks that resemble a family that they leave behind)
I came from one of those
I understand my view is probably a little too absolute for some of you guys
But if you had seen your cousin dead on the bathroom floor from an
poorly mixed morning drug cocktail with her PDR open on the bed
Maybe you would see it a little more my way

Really dont mean to offend anyone just my opinion

Going back to lurking now
 
thanks guys so far for your answers.

last ones first: mackasenbach, i can understand the way you see this. if i had your experience, i'd probably agree with you. as of right now, i dont. in general, i'm with munk and keith. for me, moderate use is the key. i do believe though, that one has to reach a certain maturity to be able to securely deal with it, hence my concern.

my brother does not know that i smoke. yes, my parents would like to know he smokes. i do believe though, that right now wouldn't be a good idea to tell him, he'd just see it as hypocrazy.
he's pretty smart, has very good marks etc, and i doubt he'd be so stupid to try other things than that.

keith, we did the same thing. constructed water pipes from all kinds of things. that is pretty much why i believe that actually buying one is either a) a pretty big step to more than occasional use as i have seen it happen to some friends or b) a way to try to be cool, to impress someone which would proove him being immature.
doing thing to impress others is rarely the right way.

i am not concerned about lung damage, nor do i believe he bought it for the sake of a cleaner way.

munk, your 2 cents pretty much cover what i think and what i am concerned of. i've got a friend of mine who is a bit slipping away, and in my point of view using it too much. i still dunno what to do, but i'll figure it out.

aardvark, i dont know if it harms him at this age, but i suppose. buying a bong would be a mayor step for me at least, as i said before. also, my parents would like to know, but i'd hate to a 'traitor' if you know what i mean.

hope i covered pretty much all the answers.

later, keno
 
richardallen said:
Recently, I found a bong in my bro's room. I wasn't even sneaking around or something, just looking for a CD of mine. He must've bought it recently, cause he'd left the package on the floor which caught my eye.
Click to expand...

Was he stoned when he brought the bong home?

If he really thought he was concealing it this might suggest immoderate use, at least on that occasion.

In any case, if he's entertaining any notion of "undercover" work you might suggest that a back-plan would be prudent.

Also, bongs, and other non-disposable implements are stinky. Many moms have a nose like a blood-hound. Don't ask me how I know this.
 
I'm trying to remember what I listened to at age 15.

The dinosaurs had died (very sad), and mammals were coming into their own (BIG mistake for the planet).

I'd suspect less is more in this case. No review of withdrawal cases, no confrontation with parents, no court-martial. No bong-grabbing.

Maybe...just maybe, depending on your relationship with him...a long, private walk and talk...about you leaving the house and some of the stuff of yours you'd like him to have, and some of the stuff you wish you were there to help him through. This could cover everything from girls, first-loves, sex, driving license, stupid stuff you did and other stupid stuff you didn't do; some friends you have seen who "knew it all" but still got trashed by : car accidents, pregnancies, alchoholism, heavy drug use, police, etc, etc, etc.

It sounds simplistic, but there is little ACTIVE stuff you can do. The insights and general advice of an older brother may have some lingering effect on what he does.

If you can do this and not be moralistic, but...just experienced and offering it in brother's counsel way, I fear it is the best you CAN do. As soon as you sound preachy...you've lost him.

You know the relationship best. But at that age, a light touch is the best. Family is no competition for peer pressure, really. Appealing to his growing maturity might be the best way.


I wish you every success.


Kis
 
firkin, he'd hidden the bong, but left the package in plain view. i know those packages. dont ask me how ;)

kis, i was wondering too if i just should have left it there. maybe it would have been, maybe not. i want to stop him at this age, for all i care he can start again at 18. guess this wont work.
he just says "it's legal" which it is not, it is merely tolerated by the cops. at age 16, you are allowed to buy and drink beer. hard alcohol at 18. i really dont see why MJ should be any different than hard alcohol or at least beer.
he's just saying "would you rather have me drink beer like my buddies?" - which i dont, but on the other hand he is right. in general, but not at that age. whatever, i sound like my parents did back in the day.

when i'll have kids, i'd like to teach them how to use drugs like that moderately, and at at a certain age. i'm not against smoking or drinking beer, i just believe that one has to be at a certain level to understand how far one can go. taking drugs to impress others is not the way.

we started at 17. kids i have seen now start to drink and to smoke [MJ and cigarettes as well] at 13. i am wondering, will my kids start at 6 ? what has this world turned into ? why do I feel so old ?

confused, Keno
 
IN a young person this is serious. It is the time lost- the hurdles he needs to be clearing now to grow right- and these are on hold while on drugs. It is the time spent not living. And if this is introduced now, later the consequences and price are severe. I paid it and still am. IN the 60's and early 70's drugs were supposed to make you free. We all know now what they do.

I'm in favor of legalization of Pot. I'm not in favor of Pot.

Let's hope it is just a phase right of passage stoner period. But we know how many don't leave.

At the very least I'd would examine your brother's other interests, and make sure he is still involved, plugged in. If the activities he enjoys are being dropped, he has a problem, or if the only ones left are those he can do while stoned.

I wish like hell somone I loved had been able to grab me at that age.
Sometimes though, it doesn't matter if you try and intercede- the kid is bent on destruction and you can't pull him out. That happens.



munk
 
At 15 your brother is still developing physically as well as mentally (not some esoteric mentally but an actuall physical brain cell growth type mental). Even at 20 you are still growing. Some will say you dont really stop growing physically till 25 (well in the positive way, most of us continue growing sideways well after 25). Anyways, suffice it to say, as Munk and others noted while smoking pot may not in itself make you turn tricks on the corner to supply your habit (then again there are loopy people who probably would), it does affect proper growth and development. All mood altering substances do, including alcohol. Essentially, you are taking the maturation clock and stopping it the day you start, and in some cases you turn it back. It really wont show itself till you stop, and take the time to realize, while you were busy "having fun" how much many others who werent had grown. Also, if you dont have much to lose (ie. you are very immature or stupid), well tough luck youve decided to drop the few IQ points you had. Ive known many people, who at the best were none the brightest, but after years of drug use, were little more than irratable irrational children. Now this all sounds cliche, but I know for one it is true (of course on a PUBLIC FORUM this experience is all second hand, I of course would never have used an ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE and then ANNOUNCE IT ON A PUBLIC FORUM) ;) They say pot is a gateway drug, and Ive seen plenty of people who say oh Im just a pot smoker, use plenty of hard drugs, like meth or crack, and still have the nerve to say oh Im just a pot smoker. In the very least, it is an illegal substance, and obtaining illegal substances involves you with none the most savory people, many of whom do not share the oh youre just kids having fun attitude. It also involves you in the whole legal aspect of the drug world.

Anyways, here is one story of a friend who got into serious trouble because of pot, and one that I plan on telling my son when he gets to the age where drugs start becoming an appealing thing. One day he was driving around with some friends, smoking pot, when the police pulled him over. Un-beknowenst to him, one of his "friends" had one pound of weed in his backpack, which he cunningly hid underneath the passenger seat. So at 18 years old, and the ownder and operator of the vehicle, he faced 5 years in prison for the amount of pot he was caught with. Well at 18 with graduation from highschool just a few weeks away, there was no way he was going to jail for 5 years, when the 15 year old friend whose pot it really was would only get a slap on the wrist. So he decides he will testify that the pot really wasnt his, but his 15 year old friend. Well, the police in the wise judgement, do not arrest the 15 year old, but instead try to scare him into giving up someone higher up by informing him that my friend was going to testify that it was his pot. Well, lo and behold this 15 year old isnt no average 15 year old, but a gang member. So he and his brother, and a few other gang friends, all of whom my friend thought to be his friends as well, decide to have a discussion late at night with my friend in a nice dark park. Well, after being shot, then stabbed repeatedly, my friend is then beaten and left for dead in the nearby creek. He subsequently dies 30 minutes later, or so the coroner says, from aphixiation because his throat had swollen to such a degree. This was the day after we had all graduated from high school. To add to the justice of it all, since his killers were both 15 and 14, they received 5 years each in juvenille detention. The two other friends who drove them there and supplied the weaponry, who were both above 18 got 8 and 10 year sentences. This was in 1997, so I would imagine both the killers are well and by out of prison, and because they were tried as juvenilles this will not be on their record. When they apply for jobs, they will not have to say they are convicted felons, they can go on to live productive lives, well I sorta doubt they have such plans to live respectable lives. Anyways, this is one severe story that happened to a friend, who was in control of his pot use. Got straight As, was well liked, etc....
 
thanks for sharing this story. as for the public forum, up to 6gr are tolerated where I live, which means officials will not convict you. apart from that, i never owned more than 2gr, and i dont even know how to roll cigarettes. always had people helping me out, so i'm not really a guy who smokes very often. i dont do other stuff, just for the record. never have, hopefully never will (as i cant predict what future will bring).

more OT: This forum is great, I am enjoying it more and more. It is sincere, and very friendly even to strangers. I have deleted all but three forums from my link list, because I could not stand how every thing repeated itself. HI forum is one of those, the other two being german forum (messerforum (general stuff) and the schmiedecafé (customs).

later, keno
 
Richardallen,

You said you don't want to be a "traitor".....there's nothing wrong with wanting to help someone you care about even if it means talking with some higher up.....discreetly of course. Sometimes being the bigger brother is a real pain in the ar$e but nobody said caring for someone else would ever be easy. Actually, it's quite easier to not care about others.....

Like Kis said, maybe a walk about might the right avenue. It's a lot more subtle than sticking a GPS tracker on his vehicle to find out who he hangs with so you can pay them a visit in the middle of night? ;)
 
Guys I'm going to disagree with some of you that I respect a great deal.

I'm not a policeman. I would make a terrible LEO. I just run a grocery store. But I have seen too many promising young people, lose half of themselves into drugs. I don't mean the hard core, crack or heroin, just pot.

I guess many of you would say that I don't know what I'm talking about, as I never ever used anything other than alcohol or tobacco that wasn't prescription. But I see it every store I get assigned too. We even do an oral drug test, but we still hire 'em, and sooner or later my spies report them. Sometimes I manage to get them tested again and out they go. Some times they are lucky and I can't dream up a good reason for a test.

Of course at the same time I have others than unless they were on their legal drugs they weren't worth spit.

As for being a traitor, I wish I had betrayed my sister who at 15 decided that she wanted sex, and got a dead beat for a husband and three kids out of the deal. I think that doing what is right is the right thing to do. problem is deciding what that is right?
 
I agree, the point is to do the right thing. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you want to know what your 15 year old was doing?

This is a very delicate issue, as many factors are invloved. The only assertion I will make is this: You are responsible only for your own actions,not those of others. You must decide what you will need to do, out of love for your brother. Of course, how you approach it must take into consdieration what you know of your parents and him,but even then, you have the responsibility to decide what you will do with the knowledge you have.

To illustrate the point, consider this: Who is responsible for the death of the South Korean, the Korean Government, or the men who hacked his head off?

None of us can guarantee any certain outcome. This is one of many reasons why the end justifies the means philosophy is a fallacy.

If you believe in right and wrong as absolutes, then the only thing you can control is whether you do the right thing in any given situation, or not. If you do not believe in absolute right and wrong, then you can't really live consistently in this universe.

Figuring out what is right in any given situation can be really tough, but there is an answer, whatever it may be. I don't feel wise enought to say what it would be in this particular case, but that is your task, to try and figure it out.

Some questions to consider:

Why do you think it is OK to use drugs?
Do you think your parents have a responsibilty for your brother?
Which is more important to you, your brother's well being, or his opinion of you?
Do your parents know of your drug use?
Would you be willing to tell them when you tell about your brother?

I hope I am not coming across in a bad way. I could have used a bit more supervision in my late teens, and the labors to overcome the consequences of my transgressions have been bitter and long lasting. Thankfully, much progress has been made, by God's grace.

I really want the best for you and your brother, and your parents too.

You see, it would have been easier for me to have kept quiet. Maybe some would think I should have, but all I can do is what I believe to be right.

I will be praying for both of you.

Tom
 
Keno, I just don't have "THE" answer for you. I don't think it exists.

Federico: thanks for telling that tale. I've spent the last 20 years in the middle of small town Nevada. In one way it kind of boggles my mind and in another, I accept it happened and deplore it - to what purpose I don't know.
 
I had a good read here in this thread. I certainly don't disagree with what others have said, like 45-70. Those folks obvioulsy were not 'moderate' users, and anyone using a 'recreational drug' (including alcohol) at work does have a problem.

Amsterdam, which has privatized the Hashish market to coffee shops, cannot be run by a bunch of stoners, thus I'm sure their penalties for arriving at work 'under the influence' or using at work are at least as stiff as ours.

When the Danish guys came over from Denmark to design a certain hog-slaughter and storage facility in northern Indiana, they had hash pipes around their necks...never once saw them use em. No idea how they got them thru customs.

on a related drug topic: Does anyone think it's funny in a dark way when modern liquor and beer ads say "Drink responsibly" while in the background there's all kindsa crazy party stuff going on? How many regular drinkers are 'drinking responsibly?' Do we really think those ads are for 'responsible drinkers, while showing party animals? What's next? "Shoot heroin responsibly?'

There are good and bad drugs, often the diff is ony in how they are used. I had a buddy who became a coke-head because his job (bartender at big Indy club) made such things readily available. At first he was open about it, but then became reclusive and weird. In the end, he used his rent and (unbknownst to them) his roommates rent from four months to buy his coke. It's one thing to take yerself down, but yer roommates? This drug caused him nasal and dental damage, plus the additional wear and tear of metabolic boosts and drops, etc, and it took his soul...he had the dark eyes of a shark after that, dead and hollowed out, relatively friendless, a lifeless shell.
This same drug is used to make novocaine, and all 'caine derivatives come from this powerful drug.

The Havamal says this about intoxicants, which i would extend past alcohol to include all of them:

11.
Better gear than good sense
A traveller cannot carry,
A more tedious burden than too much drink
A traveller cannot carry,

12.
Less good than belief would have it
Is mead for the sons of men:
A man knows less the more he drinks,
Becomes a befuddled fool,

14.
Drunk I got, dead drunk,
When Fjalar the wise was with me:
Best is the banquet one looks back on after,
And remembers all that happened,

19.
Drink your mead, but in moderation,
Talk sense or be silent:
No man is called discourteous who goes
To bed at an early hour

Keith
 
Hope it gets worked out. Maybe some good got done.

I hate it that so often you don't hear until five years later that you made a difference.
 
Ferrous Wheel said:
There are good and bad drugs, often the diff is ony in how they are used. I had a buddy who became a coke-head because his job (bartender at big Indy club) made such things readily available. At first he was open about it, but then became reclusive and weird. In the end, he used his rent and (unbknownst to them) his roommates rent from four months to buy his coke. It's one thing to take yerself down, but yer roommates? This drug caused him nasal and dental damage, plus the additional wear and tear of metabolic boosts and drops, etc, and it took his soul...he had the dark eyes of a shark after that, dead and hollowed out, relatively friendless, a lifeless shell.
This same drug is used to make novocaine, and all 'caine derivatives come from this powerful drug.

Keith
Click to expand...

Good sentiments, expressed here, but assuming "coke" means cocaine, this entirely and absolutely false. Sorry to be blunt.

The names chosen for the marketing of drugs is like choosing the names for cars. 'Novacaine" or "Benzocaine" are examples of trade names for substances that happen to exhibit the numbing effects of cocaine, and were so named for marketing purposes. None of these commercially-named substances possess the chemical structural properties that endow cocaine with it's well-known effects on the brain nor are they produced from cocaine. The structure that the latter have in common with cocaine that produces local anethesia is easily and economically synthesized from commonly available substances.

I made benzocaine in an undergraduate chemistry laboratory class. I guarantee that that we were not given cocaine as a starting material. As Ph.D. organic chemist with experience in the pharmaceutical industry, I guarantee that cocaine is distinctly structurally different than substances marketed under the trade names of "Novacaine", "Lidocaine" or "Benzocaine". Neither of these numbing or anesthetic substances contain the chemical structures responsible for the psychotropical effects of cocaine. There are substances that produce similar psychological effects without producing local numbing or anethesia. It is true that the naturally occuring substance with the common name of cocaine happens to have a composite chemical structure which allows it to act as both a local anesthetic and produce the psychotropical effects for which it best known. The part of cocaine responsible for the particular psychotropic effects is actually very difficult to synthesize, and it is more economical to extract cocaine from natural sources. However synthesizing benzocaine from inexpensive and readily available material is an one-period undergraduate laboratory exercise (I did it in class as a sophmore). I note that making amphetamine could also be a one period laboratory exercise, but it's effects are not quite those of cocaine.

To sum up, the molecular properties that make cocaine a local anlagesic are not particularly unusual, or particulary difficult to synthesize or uncommon. The molecular structure that provides cocaine with it's unique psychotropic effects is quite hard to synthesize. It is somewhat related to those of things like amphetamine, which is troublesomely easy to synthsize, but still quite different in structure and effect.

Brain chemistry is complicated and subtle.

I realize that to most, the subtlies and semmingly esoteric distinctions between commercial trade names, genuine descriptive chemical nomenclature and accepted common names for well known chemical substances is opaque. I assure all that these distinctions exist and are quite real.

Sorry to be harsh, but this kind of crap ticks me off big time.


Almost as much as some *sshole putting stickers on bannanas that say "no cholesterol" (NO PLANTS MAKE CHOLESTEROL, ONLY ANIMALS DO , plants do make related compounds that the human body can convert to cholesterol).

The " 'caine " assertion belongs in the same dustbin as most other "urban myths". There is similarity, but the part that is similar is not what makes cocaine a psychoactive drug. The important part for psychoactivity is absent from any over the counter and most if not all prescription drugs sold as local anesthetics. Forget making cocaine from Solarcaine.


Anybody who wants to look at some pictures and try to see the difference can go here,

http://www.iconbazaar.com/molecules...ous. Now returning to regular programming.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top