OT: Is there morality without God?

DannyinJapan said:
Is there morality without God?

Any thoughts?
Of course there is. I know several people who aren't believers who are as good, better, actually more moral, than many X-tians that I know.

Then you have to define "God." Yours? Mine? Whos?

The Old Ways I believe in have no concept of a hell or punishment if a person doesn't live "right." They just get kicked off the beginning of the road at the beginning of the Star Journey and have to return to life to see if they can ever get it right.

A while back you wrote something to the effect of, "I'd screw 'em all" when posting some pix of some women. How does that set with your X-tian morals, or were you just kidding?:rolleyes: ;) :p
 
This is the beginning of the investigation that has driven many a philosopher nuts. I'm not wading into this one, thank you very much.
 
Bri in Chi said:
This is the beginning of the investigation that has driven many a philosopher nuts. I'm not wading into this one, thank you very much.
Awww come on Brian.

You're not any closer to the edge than any of the rest of us.:rolleyes: :p ;) :D
 
I recently got into a political discussion on this forum and wish that i hadnt. Its not that political/religious discussions are wrong, just that they can interfere with pre-established relationships and friendships especially in a place where I come to relax and talk knives.

If there is anything I should know by now its to never attempt to change anyones mind on:

1. Religion
2. Politics
3. Ford vs. Chevy
4. Redheaded women

And ill leave it at that.
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
IIf there is anything I should know by now its to never attempt to change anyones mind on:

3. Ford vs. Chevy

And ill leave it at that.
Dodge is the best!:rolleyes: :p :D ;)








Just tzn, everyone knows that Ford makes the best trucks.:p











Still tzn. It's a matter of personal choice. I just prefer Ford trucks as they last forever for me.
However the old '66 Long,Wide partially customed small window Chevy truck with the small block 400, 350 Turbo, real guage dash, 10" inchers on the back, 4" headers, and twin Walker glasspaks warn't no slouch and one I wouldn't mind still owning.:D
God drives a Mopar. I'm still lusting after a 2004 Chrysler 300M but I'm gonna settle for a 2005 Nissan Altima SE next year.

Now back to whether you have to know God to be a moral person, not only No, But Hell No!!!!:D;)
 
Yvsa said:
Awww come on Brian.

You're not any closer to the edge than any of the rest of us.:rolleyes: :p ;) :D
Perhaps not, my friend, but i have peered over that edge into that particular abyss, and decided that my path lead in another direction. :) That's all I'm sayin'.
 
Yvsa, Holly $h17 we both lust after the same Chrysler 300 M! That's probably why we inadvertently pi$$ each other off so frequently :confused:
BTW, I've made your Chile Verde a bunch of times now. It is fantastic. Needs some beans in it, though :footinmou
 
Bri in Chi said:
Yvsa, Holly $h17 we both lust after the same Chrysler 300 M! That's probably why we inadvertently pi$$ each other off so frequently :confused:
BTW, I've made your Chile Verde a bunch of times now. It is fantastic. Needs some beans in it, though :footinmou
Brian, I don't recall being pissed at you, but then I have a short memory when it comes to just being pissed off.:confused: ;)

Navy or the big white lima beans would be good, never tried 'em though but now you've sparked an idea. Maybe I'll be pissed.:p ;)
Nawww.:D
 
Jake,
Never feel the need to apologize for being candid in here.

Yvsa,
Of course I was joking, but even if I werent, its not really related. This thread is not about me or my morals. It is about teaching children morals and ethics without any spiritual content.

I was thinking some more about this, and I decided that Santa Claus is probably the answer.
 
DannyinJapan said:
This thread is not about me or my morals. It is about teaching children morals and ethics without any spiritual content.

I think that children have an equally difficult (or easy) time grasping the concept of morality with or without God, but the overall approach is pretty similar if you think about it. Either way, you encourage a particular pattern of behaviour in a child by showing that an authority figure wants them to behave in a certain way, and will punish them in some way if they don't.

With your example of the 6 y.o. telling you that they don't care about other people, they're as likely to say that if you bring God into it as if you don't. What they're really telling you is that they don't intend to listen to the authority figure who is telling them that they should care about others. God doesn't really enter into it. You're teaching a child to behave a certain way in their lives and around others. They're no more likely to behave properly because God wants them to than they are because you want them to.

When it comes to the role of discipline and punishment in training a child to act in a moral manner, I'd argue that it's actually more productive to teach morality in a secular way than a religious one. A kid can understand the concept of his parents' displeasure much easier than God's. They're more likely to understand--and want to avoid--immediate discipline from their parents than they are to understand the possiblity of punishment at some distant time in the afterlife.

Jumping into the abyss...

Chris
 
DannyinJapan said:
This thread is not about me or my morals.
It is about teaching children morals and ethics without any spiritual content.
Of course it is. Everything we do or say is an example to others, about us, and determine what they think of us. Especially children.
And by recognizing us as an authoritative figure we have a great ability in influenceing them, even if they don't appear to take what we have to say to heart right at the moment.
I learned that from helping to raise our last daughter.
Regretfully she is damned near 30 and still the same way. I'm hoping when she reaches the grow up age of 35 that she will start to listen and apply what she has learned and knows to herself.
But I won't argue with you about it.:D
 
Well, I feel like it really isnt since I dont have kids and I dont teach that class.
It's all just theory to me.
 
Since when did religion acquire a monopoly, or even a dominant market share, on "spirituality"? Typical theist bias. The assumption is that theism is spirituality and that without "G-d" belief there can be no spirituality.
 
I'm pretty open minded about religion, but I find the belief that you have to threaten to turn people into eternal kabobs over a low fire in order to force them to behave, extremely offensive to humanity as a whole. I believe that, while in some cases religion can give people a reason to behave better, in as many cases, it gives them an excuse to behave badly.
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
If there is anything I should know by now its to never attempt to change anyones mind on:

1. Religion
2. Politics
3. Ford vs. Chevy
4. Redheaded women
As to the Ford vs. Chevy question, I'll drive off in the one with the redheaded woman inside while you guys are arguing religion and politics.

;)
 
I think we all want to find happiness. Part of the search for happiness is inherent in the heart and in the culture that teaches us ethics and morality.

Like the saying " Anything worth doing is simple, but anything simple is hard! "

I don't know if you've ever heard this, but gossip is one way of judging what is tolerated and what is over the line. Teenagers live on the phone because they can assert ideas and then backtrack and cover up. The forums offer the same way of sticking your toe in the water before you jump in.

Culture is part of it. Religion is part of it. Social sanctions and laws. But to me it everntually boils down to how do I live with myself, stand being inside my skin with me. Rabindranath Tagore's poem bslow says what I'm finding to be the way for me very succinctly:

" I slept and dreamed that life was all joy.
" I woke and found that life was but service.
" I served and discovered that service was joy."


Or putting it another way,

" Ubi Caritas et Amour, Deus ibi est. "

Micah 6:8 I'll let you look up.
 
By example. And explanation, and discipline, same as any learning.

However, I would teach moral vs immoral (for me that equates to right vs. wrong) [coincidentally, 4 me the good-evil thing would = order-chaos..i see right/wrong and good/evil as judgement calls applied to situations from generally accepted/presently held perceptions of a thing], with ample field trips. It is one thing to say to a child "because we said so" (a la your example) and another thing to explain "how would you feel if that were done to you? Now think about that whenever you do anything. I love you and i'm here for you". The words of a parent are the words of gods to their children, so one must be stern and loving. (Having the state engender the youth with garbage is mind control a la the Hitler Youth movement, or a la the tribal/religoius control of the middle east on young and unemployed males today).

Respect, courtesy, hospitality, fidelety, courage, honor, and other lessons would follow. The world is a good school in which to study such lessons.

Lemme give you a short lesson plan for "honesty": I take my daughter out for a walk in downtown Inianapolis. I tell her that we will learn a few things about honesty and people. I show her five 5 dollar bills and tell her that while we are walking around the circle or at the mall, I will drop one out periodically in different locations, circimstances, and make it look as if it were an accident, and that we will pretend not to notice the dropped fiver. We will then observe (most likely) that some folks will let you know of your mistake, while others will quietly shuffle the bill into place, and palm it while fiddling with their shoe. We later will discuss our observations, how this is just ans example, how some have differetn 'honesty' thresholds, when not to be honest, etc. In the end, she's on her own.

Keep in mind this is one of many scenarios needed to exemplify such a characteristic as honesty, and an example taken as some sort of statistic or anything more than a social experiment would take this grossly out of context.

My brother had an "Ethics and Engineering" class or two in College for his ME degree. This had more to do with ethical engineering practices than "ethics"
His personal ethics prohibit him from working on any mechanical device intended to harm another, and he would prefer to make cool ass hyper-engineered toys. I'd join him on that venture as a designer. It'd be like we were kids again.

Keith
 
If there is good and evil, there must be a Judge that is above good and evil.

Does this mean that God is both Good and Evil? Or neither?
 
steely gunz, awesome response.

the immediate is hegal - why should you do this? because i said so. why should you do what i say? cause i can kick your a--

the transendent is personal - why should you do this? because you feel on a deep level that it is right. why do you beleive it is right? becuase if you do the opposite, your gonna kick your own a-- over it for years to come


personally id prefer the use of budhism over any god based religion for the teaching of morals if a "religion" must be introduced. to institute compassion and awareness as your highest goals is a lot better then "converting the wicked".






"If there is good and evil, there must be a Judge that is above good and evil.

Does this mean that God is both Good and Evil? Or neither?"

there is pain and there is pleasure/lack of pain, that doesnt mean there is a god. there can be good and evil without a judge. there can be a system without human or humanesque influence and guidance. everything in the universe works on a system, when one system collapses, its fundamental parts, or fundamental simpler systems are taken up by another to feed it to allow it to grow and take on others. to want to see a system grow is the fundamental desire of all systems, and it doesnt have to have anything to do with a god.




" How does the idea of God help you ?"

when a 6 yr old asks "why?"

You could say" well, it is nice to do this for other people."

the 6 yr old says" i dont care about them."

Fair enough, now what?"

depens entirely on what the kid was asking about

"Let me change the thread tack a little:

If you visited your child's elementary school, and one of the teachers was teaching the "ethical and moral behavior"class,
Would you be surprised?
Would you be suspicious?"

id actually be one of those parents to sit in on that class and whisper to my child as it went along/take notes the entire time. i always felt that teachers telling me right and wrong was like they were physically threatening me. it made me want to defend myself at everything single turn, at every single word spoken like they were shoving me against the wall, even though i might agree with what they were saying.

i dont like it when people think their view is better then mine and then try to convince me of otherwise. i will play the devils advocate for days on end with them just to keep it going and not have to feel like im rolling over and letting them take a knife to my stomach without resistence. just a core hatred of mine to have people feel like they have the upper hand phylisophically. it should be about understanding, not moral superiority.
 
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