OT: Satori Recants - S30V Ain't Half Bad

Dave Rishar

Dave Rishar

Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
3,178
Shortly after I made my comments about my experiences with S30V I did some more reading and decided to try something new: I'd grind the entire edge off and start over again.

It makes sense...sort of. I'm quite used to this with low alloy. In fact, I'd say that most of the low alloy blades that I've worked with had dubious edges until they'd been sharpened a few times, enough to get down to the good stuff. I'd just never seen this with stainless before.

Anyway, I picked up one of those doublesided diamond stones (med/vfine) and got to work. Long story short, I put a new edge on it and haven't touched it since. It's been essentially maintenance free since then, even while chopping down small branches. The edge looks like hell and cuts like the dickens. I like it. Next week the Manix begins its sea trials.

Howard, Jeb...you guys were right. This is good stuff.
 
Satori I only have one SV 30 knife and I haven't had much opportunity to use it but unlike some stainless steels that go dull just setting in a box it holds its edge constantly.:cool: I need to get it out and let Barbie try it in the kitchen and see how it holds up.:D

I do have some blades with VG 10 and D2 and absolutely love them.:D
I've used the VG 10 the most as I've had it longer and it keeps a marvelous edge but is on the hard side to sharpen.
If it were a thicker blade it would be damned difficult!!!! :rolleyes: :grumpy:
The D2 on the other hand keeps its edge and isn't hard to sharpen at all, kinda like well done 52100.
Me Likey.:D
As a matter of fact Me Likey so well I'm considering getting another damned rubber handled knife just to get a D2 blade cheap, sure is funny how the price on some of these exotic steels comes down after it's been out a while.:rolleyes: ;) :D
 
Yvsa said:
As a matter of fact Me Likey so well I'm considering getting another damned rubber handled knife just to get a D2 blade cheap, sure is funny how the price on some of these exotic steels comes down after it's been out a while.:rolleyes: ;) :D
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Hasn't D2 been around since WWII?
 
I think I've had the same experience. When I first got my Military there was this area near the tip that would get blunt from just cutting paper. I convexed the edge. After a couple of sharpenings the problem is gone.

I really hate sharpening S30V though. It's very wear resistant, and the burr that develops is the most stubborn that I've encountered.
 
kamagong said:
I really hate sharpening S30V though. It's very wear resistant, and the burr that develops is the most stubborn that I've encountered.
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Kam on difficult burrs use the fine crock sticks mounted in the block of wood. Generally four swipes down each side will take off the burr and then stropping will restore the slight bevel back to convex.:D
 
D-2 has been around for a long time, but hasn't had much favor with knifemakers, or manufacturers in the past because it is difficult to grind, tricky to heat treat well, and almost impossible to get a clean mirror polish on. Back in the days when a mirror polish was the sign of a real first-class custom knife, that was a factor. D-2 tends to get an orange-peel finish. Its main attribute seems to be abrasion resistance - which translates into "hard to sharpen, but cuts like crazy forever."
I'm not a metallurgist :( so this ain't official. :rolleyes:
 
kamagong said:
I really hate sharpening S30V though. It's very wear resistant, and the burr that develops is the most stubborn that I've encountered.
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Most of this is due to improper profiles, S30V is best used on light use smaller knives and here you want a very minimal edge profile, a very narrow bevel which means little steel needs to be removed when honing. If your knife isn't ground like this then you can get the same performance by applying a high relief grind with an x-coarse hone which will eat S30V like butter, try a 220 SiC hone. Now just sharpen the very edge with your finer hones at a slightly higher angle.

In regards to the burr, this isn't a problem with S30V specifically but the combination of a high wear resistance and low machinability with a low hardness. Get a S30V blade at ~ 62 HRC and you have little problems with burrs because the edge will form crisp. However when you leave a blade fairly soft, and some of the S30V blades have hardness tested down to ~55 HRC, the edge tends to turn under rods rather than be cleanly cut. Jeff Clark has given detailed instructions on how to deal with problematic burrs.

Satori said:
... grind the entire edge off and start over again.
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In general this is good advice before juding any knife or steel as NIB edges are rarely optimal. Why this is happening with S30V is interesting though, as the big promotion of Crucible is consistency of composition of the steel and heat treatment. It definately should not be the expected behavior of the steel.

-Cliff
 
Thanks guys. I am able to take the burrs off my Military and S30V 110, but it just takes a lot more work.

It's strange. I actually have a much easier time with VG10 than S30V, the opposite of your experiences Yvsa.

This much is certain though. Stainless is a lot more annoying to sharpen. I picked up a BRKT a couple of weeks ago with A2 steel. Compared to VG10 or S30V, sharpening A2 is a joy.
 
I started the sea trials today and it's not looking too good.

Slicing up a soda can chewed the edge up something fierce. (I'll try to get some pics up later.) It chipped right out.

Some of the chips were clean breaks. Others seemed kind of smeared. I honestly don't know what to make of it.

The lock seems pretty much immune to my monkeyfisting. I slammed the spine of the blade on everything available, as hard as I could while still maintaining control of the knife. It's built like a tank. It's just that steel that's got me wondering...

It still cuts very well, damaged edge and all. The spots that hadn't chipped remained sharp enough to slice paper after all was said and done. I still had no problems removing this week's creepers that had grown over the driveway on my way down to the mailbox.

Regardless, it'll get a new (thicker and more convexed) edge and I'll try this again. We're not done yet. The knife will triumph or die trying.

This is turning into a very interesting experience. :)
 
Satori said:
Slicing up a soda can chewed the edge up something fierce.
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Sides or top/bottom?

Of course both should be cut readily, it is just really bad performance if it happened on the sides. Assuming an edge angle of 15+ per side, cuts should not be a problem.

On thicker food cans you can expect some damage mainly due to torquing on the edge, with heavy straight cuts you should be able to do the cutting with no visible damage, even with the high carbon stainless steels.

With the better tool steels, you can cut metal all day long, they are designed to do it.

I honestly don't know what to make of it.
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It is all a conspiracy, S30V is really an extremely tough steel and all the posts reporting problems with it are just nonsense, its probably because the users are not "high speed" operators. You likely didn't use the correct deanimation technique on the pop can, or the S30V blade didn't have the required blood groove.

-Cliff
 
Yer an animal...

What knife is this anyway?

.
 
I don't believe that it picked up any damage until I got to the bottom of the can but I'm not sure - I wasn't expecting any problems and hadn't been looking for any.

Once I noticed that there was damage I kept going. I was going to have to regrind the edge anyway; I wanted to see if the damage was only occurring in one location.

Anyway, here's the result.

manix.jpg
 
Could this possibly be the result of de-carb at the edge? Heat treating burning out some carbon leaving the edge soft? I've heard of this with high carbon steel heat treated in a forge. I would think the techie makers would use more sophisticated methods to avoid this :confused:
 
Wow, that is horrible. I was thinking of damage sub-mm in depth which you would need to see under mag to actually stand out. You should not get that level of damage cutting even heavy food tins, nor large metal drums.

S30V blades have been getting reports of damage recently on the forums, the above is the worst I have heard of, Spyderco runs their edges very acute which is likely compounding the issue here, but you should not need obtuse bevels to cut such light metals.

Some of the people with problems have been seeing improvement which sharpening so it does point to edges having problems but again you have a lot of metal to hack off in that case. That is defective, unless your pop cans are actually made of hardened stainless.

-Cliff
 
Jeb also got some edge damage on his S30V Manix. He was trying to cut one of those artificial plants and forgot that they have metal wires inside of them. I think the edge chipped out a little. I was kind of suprised because the wires inside those plants are usually pretty small, and S30V is supposed to be fairly tough, at least according to Crucible's data. Maybe Spyderco improperly heat treated some of them?
 
Maybe there is S30V and S30V?

I remember a long time ago when the "same" steels could be sourced from different suppliers. Sometimes there was a 30% or better price difference between them.

.
 
You might want to check out the Boye knives that have blades made out of an alloy called dendritic cobalt.

From the site: www.boyeknives.com
Boye Dendritic Cobalt (BDC) is not a steel, but a metallic alloy composed of cobalt, chrome, nickel, tungsten, silicon, molybdenum, iron, and carbon.
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From the reviews of these 3" folders, these knives, originally made for a marine environment, will cut through some pretty tough stuff, like commercial spectra line, and still keep an edge quite a long time. The dendritic cobalt alloy is evidently extremely corrosion proof, even in salt water. It supposedly sharpens up quite readily on a regular whetstone.

The blades are available either serrated or non-serrated and the folding titanium marlinspike/shackle key is optional. The knife is made for one handed opening and weighs in at about 2.2oz.

knives-map-04.jpg
 
Nasty said:
Maybe there is S30V and S30V?

I remember a long time ago when the "same" steels could be sourced from different suppliers. Sometimes there was a 30% or better price difference between them.

.
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As far as I know S30V is only made by one manufacturer, Crucible.

I agree with Cliff though. The damage of Satori's Manix? is terrible. He should direct Sal Glesser's attention to it, and perhaps send it in to Spyderco.
 
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