OT:The elements of an arrest

hawkwind said:
Keno: I read "1984" just after comunists left back in 1989. I was shocked because I knew it. The book was too real.
Even more alarming is that Orwell wrote that without knowing the red reality.
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On the contrary, "Orwell" was a member of a "worker's militia" in the Spanish Civil War and experienced "Party Discipline" first hand. What he experienced caused him to loath Communism.
 
Citizen's arrest can only be made if a felony has been witnessed.

The Supreme Court has ruled that one can resist false/illegal arrest by any means necessary. Good luck staying alive long enough to argue that in court.

I watched Crash recently. A thought provoking movie...In any case, most of my interactions with law enforcement have been very polite, and sometimes even friendly. Like any other group, there are some "bad", some "good", and the
mainly mediocre. And even the good ones can have bad days, the bad ones can have good moments...

John
 
What you fail to realize is that I spent most of my younger adult life...living on and working on military reservations...Hood, Drum,Huachuca,Camp Humphreys ROK...and the Presidio.

I understand military mindset.

I also understand...and did then...they were out of their jurisdiction.

Had no grounds for anything more than a drive by...and no reason to suspect a crime had taken place...or was about to...

I provided them with legal identification...they knew who I was...and had no other reason to proceed further.

However, the minute I open the car door they do have reason to proceed with a search...to be certain that they are safe from any possible weapons inside the vehicle.

I have the background to know what search and seizure is about...and I also know what is reasonable and prudent.

As far as what was it..."Snapping to"? You can piss off there. Compliance does not mean lock step Mien Heir...

Have somebodt hold a gun to your head...and see how much you feel like complying...

Got it?

Point is POLICE can do whatever they want...whenever they want...where ever they want...the man on the street knows it...and if you guys don't...wake up...

Shane

Hey Munk...I know you got storeis man...someday...ok?
 
Shane

I was a Military Police officer for the Navy. I appoligize for what those idiots did. They were way wrong, I would have never done something like that. I work as a civillian Poilce officer for the Army and have found myself appoligizing for the Army mp's alot lately and the over whelming response I have gotten from the folks on base is, "Don't applogize for them they make themselves look bad and the whole MP Corps, you or your fellow civillian officers haven't done anything wrong. I belive what most have said is true young military police/police ingeneral think their gods. I came into law enforcement in my late 20's. been in law enforcement for about 5 yrs and I guess I've been lucky only had to draw my weapon on a person 2 times one on a person with a really big butcher knife and on a felony car stop. Haven't had to shoot anyone Thank God. Just my 2cents


James
 
Spectre said:
Citizen's arrest can only be made if a felony has been witnessed.

The Supreme Court has ruled that one can resist false/illegal arrest by any means necessary. Good luck staying alive long enough to argue that in court.

John
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As to resisting unlawful arrest, John Bad Elk v. United States was decided near the end of the century before last and has not been cited as authority since. In the Kent State civil case, the plaintiffs asked the federal court to charge the jury that one had the right to use force to resist unlawful police authority, and the court refused. I would not rely on an ancient case (involving Indian Police on a res.) never cited as authority. Besides, as you say, the best lawyer cannot repair holes, much less bring you back to life.

Ed. to add:

And under state law, resisting even an unlawful arrest by force may constitute feloneous assault on a police officer. Ohio would be an example.
 
hawkind, sad thing is that orwell was being optimistic, if you take a look at what is happening in todays world. cameras everywhere, they take your fingerprints whenever they can, i've got an eletronic ship in my passport. we've long passed orwell's worst nightmares. mind you, i am not just complaining about the US and British behaviour, the Germans are no better. Having editorial office's being searched by the police because they won't tell where they got their information, that is what we're at.

and what's even more funny (or sad, depends on you) is you've got people telling you right here and now to obey the authorities no matter what. don't question them. don't think. obey. be a sheep. and if you don't, expect to be executed.

Keno
 
I never said it was right- only that it was reality, Shane.

I've been beaten by the police. I've been unconscious. I've been thrown into cells with PCP drugged gang punks in hopes I'd be torn limb to limb. I've been jomped and thumped by inmates. I've taken down punks and had them take me down and beat the living s--t out of me. I've pissed sideways out of non compliant kidneys after being hammered in the sides by careful police using night sticks. Screwed blued and tatooed. I've been misteated and treated right too. I've met fine men and women and met son of bitches who would torture you for a whim. I've met ER doctors who thought they were Gods. I've known baby rapers and incest survivors. I've treated the mentally ill for ten years. I've seen the back wash of society. I've been the back wash of society. I've been the guy women and small children would cross the road to avoid because they didn't what I was or could do. I've been so decompensated that I could walk through the worst neighborhoods in LA because I had nothing left to lose. I've wandered the high desert and made friends with the crazy loner hard rock miners who trust no one. I've talked drugged out schizophrenics down from confrontations with Police that could have turned deadly, I've spent years of my life with a blood alcohol level above .3 as a constant. Years. I've had the DT's and black outs so many times I can't count them. I've heard the voices in swamp coolers and air conditioners. I've had visions all my life and prophetic dreams. I've had more breaks, more luck, and more talent then I ever knew what to do with and have always felt guilty and ashamed I pissed so much of it away. I've always thought God made a mistake and put this stuff in the wrong guy.

I've met the greatest people on earth and had them love me. I've had some of the greatest freinds any man or women could ever ask for. I've had more help from Above then any atheist could shrug off as misinterpreted data. And I miss my friend Rusty because I could tell him anything and he would always understand.

I've written a book now and can look the Angels in the Eyes when I die. I'm still afraid of Cops even though I know most of them are pretty good guys. I've never stolen a stereo or sold drugs. I've hurt a lot of people, and made many mistakes, paid the price and hurt myself most of all. I have a family and an even break at happiness now. I have a wife and three sons and a crazy brain and am your moderator. What a lucky break for you- a Madman at the helm.

Well, the Cantina did not call for Ann Landers when it needed bartenders, doormen, and story tellers. The damn place attracts whackos and Ducks and all manner of flying beasts. Wait till you see those God Damned Bats.

And By God, Life Is Cheap Out Here On The Brazos.



munk
 
richardallen said:
hawkind, sad thing is that orwell was being optimistic, if you take a look at what is happening in todays world. cameras everywhere, they take your fingerprints whenever they can, i've got an eletronic ship in my passport. we've long passed orwell's worst nightmares. mind you, i am not just complaining about the US and British behaviour, the Germans are no better. Having editorial office's being searched by the police because they won't tell where they got their information, that is what we're at.

and what's even more funny (or sad, depends on you) is you've got people telling you right here and now to obey the authorities no matter what. don't question them. don't think. obey. be a sheep. and if you don't, expect to be executed.

Keno
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Respectfully, we are not nearly in Orwell's 1984 'cause if we were, you would have already had the knock on the door and would be off to the "reeducation" camp.

We have had real examples of totalitarianism. Overblown views of less than perfect government are just that - overblown.

First, the advice is to obey the guy with the gun. No one said anything about "no matter what" or never questioning authority.

And what would be your advice if some uptight kid had a gun pointed at your head? Call names? Grab for the pistol?

If you survive a bad experience, there is a chance to obtain some redress/payback/changes. I give you the results of the suit filed in NOLA to stop confiscation of citizen's firearms. You can be positive that civil suits for damages will follow. And the three cops that recently whipped on the citizen in NOLA got to be: 1) arrested; 2) suspended without pay; 3) TV stars. Sued may follow. So we are emphatically NOT in Orwell's "worst nightmare" or anything like it.
 
Thomas,

maybe I should clarify: I do believe that the amount of surveillance and control by the government is far greater and has reached a technological level that Orwell back then wouldn't have imagined.

I am quite happy though that so far no one has knocked on my door :)

sincerely,

Keno
 
Greetings: Shane
Please forgive me. I was not trying to upset you. You are absolutely right. They were out of their jurisdiction, out of line, out of control,and seems like they were out of their minds.

You are absolutely right that I would not like it if someone stuck a gun up side my head but one thing is for sure, I definitely would snap to and fully comply to whatever they wanted me to do until I could get through the situation and then at a later date I would tell the base commander in a polite way what I had been subjected to and request that he look into the incident and take some kind of corrective or diciplinary action on the little monsters who were grinding my face into the ground.

Sure glad that guy didn't squeeze the trigger too hard and blow your brains out.
Life just isn't fair at times. So, we have to grit our teeth, keep our chin up and try to smile and be agreeable at times.

J. W. Kilpatrick
 
I suspect that some here have not read 1984 lately.

In 1984, every home (as are most other places) is bugged and has, in effect, camera coverage (two-way TV) -- courtesy of the government of Oceana. Only low whispers and things done in total darkness are immune from observation by the Thought Police. Being out of view is, of course, suspect. All communication or recordation of ideas is to be by electronic media reviewable by the Thought Police -- on pain of death. It is almost trivial that large numbers of regular Police and "loyal" citizens watch people's activities including spying through windows. "Big Brother is Watching." Anyone here think we have reached that level of surveillance? Certainly we have a higher capacity for "Watching," but lack Big Brother.

(Think you lack privacy? Grow up and live in a small town.)

I think Master Card knows far more about me than Big Brother.
 
True enough about the credit companies, but it's worse when they know less than they think. I've made my own mistakes, but have also been the victim of fraud, as well. Rooms to Go and Verizon both think I've been customers, to
the tune of about $10,000 between them.

I've met the greatest people on earth and had them love me.
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Hah! I plan on being cremated, but if I had a grave, I'd be happy to have this on my tombstone.

A few years ago, I thought something similar. Despite having a reasonable amount of talent, I had accomplished very few of the things I had expected to have done at that time in my life. At the same time, I had become good friends with some of the best people. I was forced to conclude my life had value, despite being at variance with previous plans. :)

John
 
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I trust there will be more.

1. I think we have the technology to live in Orwell's 1984 world. I don't think we have the intention or the group mindset to do so - a large part of it was built on self-monitoring and monitoring within close groups of people. Remember the boy and girl turned in their father (or maybe it was both parents - been awhile). Right now, without the complicity of citizens at large, it would be extraordinarily expensive to monitor everyone all the time. I think the government has always watched "people of interest" - note extensive FBI and CIA files on celebrities. Now, perhaps that umbrella is expanding with the increasing power of computer analysis and the increasing amount of stuff beamed into the electronic aether. Note that we still have lots of trouble catching up with people who use primarily low-tech environments and don't want to be caught (Osama Bin Ladin and other al Quaeda organizers come to mind).

2. It seems like in police encounters, you win or lose in the first few seconds. You win if you stay composed despite any abuse, and survive long enough to work things through the courts (yeah, it helps to have $, connections, and other resources to do that). You lose if you flip out, escalate the incident and give them an excuse to lock you up.

I'm incredibly glad that we live in a place where most of the cops are decent, and there is a system for addressing injustices (albeit less than perfect). I also expect that cops have to put up with more from the bad guys than good people have to put up with abuse from bad cops.

Contrast America with Iraq - police there get no respect, have little authority, and are targeted for execution. Interesting that here, we trust the police enough to give them a HUGE measure of authority and trust that they will do their jobs locking up criminals. I think the effectiveness of our police and the ineffectiveness of various Iraqi security forces rests on the perceptions and trust of the people they serve. American policing would not be possible without the attitudes of citizens about police.
 
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I trust there will be more. >>>>>>> Tohatchi

Actually, no. This is our last one.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Did I mention San Francisco used to be a great City? They now have propostion H, which if passed, will eliminate all handguns in private hands within the city limits. You'll have 90 days to get them out or turn them into the Police. No grandfather clause. Welcome to the Future, Citizen.




munk
 
munk said:
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I trust there will be more. >>>>>>> Tohatchi

Actually, no. This is our last one.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Did I mention San Francisco used to be a great City? They now have propostion H, which if passed, will eliminate all handguns in private hands within the city limits. You'll have 90 days to get them out or turn them into the Police. No grandfather clause. Welcome to the Future, Citizen.




munk
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That will never happen. We have the constitution with it's right to bear arms.

:p
 
We've proven the Constitution is no obstacle to individual will, popular whim, or personal crusade.



munk
 
munk said:
We've proven the Constitution is no obstacle to individual will, popular whim, or personal crusade.



munk
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I wish that wasn't so accurate.

Good stuff all. I've had mixed experience with cops. I have learned that being beligerant and uncooperative is a great way to make a bad situation worse, even if you are right and within your rights. Don't like it, fight like hell when you are in a safer place (the courtroom), but resisting an arrest is one of the most dangerous things you can do. Don't mess with cops, even if you know they are corrupt and jerking you around. A town cop had it out for my cousin, he made his life hell until he moved. But he never gave that cop an excuse to do anything worse. I am no fan of "the Man", but they have the badge and gun and you don't. That may be wrong sometimes, but fighting it on the spot will hurt you worse than them most times. I just follow my dad's advice. "Just say, 'Yes Sir. No Sir. Thank you Sir.' And let the lawyers figure out the rest".
 
You shouldn't need a lawyer, and by inference money, to live without harrasment. Fortunately, most cops are not bad.



munk
 
Historically, there have been instances of crimes against individuals including rapes and murders being committed both by people impersonating lawful authorities, and by the lawful authorities themselves. Remembering that throws a different light on some of these discussions, although it does not invalidate anything that has been said.

Recently locally we have had a double homicide committed by a man posing as an FBI agent, the chief of police in a major local city blow away his estranged wife in a parking lot, a state trooper who resigned in disgrace after copping an Alford plea to stopping and groping numerous women on the highway, and a man posing as a fire inspector to rob pharmacies.

http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?ID=38803
http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?ID=39749
http://www.komotv.com/news/story_m.asp?ID=39677
http://www.komotv.com/news/story_m.asp?ID=39737

There are many good men and women in law enforcement. On the other hand, I keep getting catalogs in the mail offering to sell me uniforms, vests with police or FBI markings, badges, etc. Who knows how I get on these lists, but if a lowlife like me can easily get law enforcement IDs, how about nicer people like burglers, rapists, etc.

I would really like to see harsh penalties enacted for anyone impersonating a police officer. Harsh penalties like life in prison or death. When someone impersonates a LEO it undermines the confidence of the citizenry in their ability to submit to someone who appears to be a LEO and get fair treatment under the laws of the land.

I would also like to see all uniformed law enforcement required to wear easily visible identification numbers on the back and front of their uniforms. Something like 3" high easily visible numbers. A tiny almost invisible number printed on a badge does not count. I think this would make more difficult instances like Shane experienced where LEOs harrass citizens and then dissappear leaving no record. I have heard other people whom I trust relate similar stories, including threats ("I know where your family lives") by LEOs who refused to provide identification when asked.

Sometimes, like the police cheif in the article referenced above, a LEO just flips out.

Some things to think about.
 
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