OT-- Weapons of the Alans (Alani) people

[ACStudios]

Hi everyone.

I posted this over on the sword forum and haven't gotten any responses yet. Then I remembered that we have a very educated gang here in the cantina that might know about this subject.

I'm doing some research on the Vandals and Alans people of the 50 AD-1500 AD time period. From what I've found, the Alans were a nomadic tribe who travelled into the German region (Gaul) around about the time the Huns were causing problems for eastern Europe and the Visigoths were sacking Rome (and sacking Rome, and... well, you get the idea) .

Being a nomadic people, who were excellent horsemen, and being from the area around Iran. ... (although Christian). I was thinking that they'd be using a sword similar to a scmitar or falchion. However, I have not been able to find any references tonight on the internet. I also suspect that they would use a shorter recurve bow too.

Does anyone out there have any information on what type of weapons they used? I would also appreciate any info on clothing, lifestyle etc... or a couple of good references. They appear to be a very interesting people, who ended up settling in Portugal and Spain.

thanks everyone! I now return you to your normally scheduled UBDOTD

Alan

 

[Bill Martino]

I'm sure Berk will be able to offer an enlightening lecture on this subject.

 

[beoram]

Alan - on the Alans - this is what I found:

http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/analiz/karacaylarin tarihi4.html
[very good site--not much on weapons though, other than saying 'bows, spears']

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~karachay/chaptd.html
[timeline & references]

here's one on weapons,

Most Alars are illiterate though like on much of Gor this is not considered an impediment. The Alars are a fierce people, renowned for causing mayhem and having little conscience about it. The Alars use several types of weapons but are most known for their skill with the ax. The Alars use an axe they call the francisca. This is a heavy, long-handled, single-bladed war axe. The blade is commonly made of iron. Women do not possess the physical strength to wield this axe and many cannot even lift it. The Alars also use swords, both a long and short blade. Their long sword, called the spatha, and is a heavy, double-bladed weapon. Due to its length, it is very useful from the back of a tharlarion. Their short sword, called the sacramasax, is a stabbing sword similar to the gladius. Alar shields are usually oval-shaped like those used by the Turians.

http://members.aol.com/UbarLuther/Scroll30.html

'The Alans, Hans, Dacii, Goths, and Vandals who finally overthrew the empire of the West, acquired much celebrity for their skill in archery.'
http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcelo/archery/library/books/guide/docs/chapter1_1.html

The Alans were in­deed a very particular enemy for the people living south of the famous Caspian Gates (Temir Kapu "Iron Gate") which is said to be built to keep back Gog and Magog (8) whom Marco Polo called Tartars (Turkish Comans or Cumanians) (9), and before him, Isidor of Seville called Avars (10) by which he meant Scythians. Thus, the idea of Gog represented as "God's sword" for unbelievers seems also to be reflected in one of the meanings of Tatabý, "(the) sword of enemy" or "the sword for enemy" where in our present case the sword is Külük, king of Alans.

http://www.lostlanguages.com/parthian.htm

...The plot included the richest Sarmatian and Alanic burials known from Klin Yar, among them one of the richest Alanic graves from the North Caucasus...The man wore a small gold earring in his left ear, and sported golden boot fittings. At his right side was a sword with decorated hilt and P-shaped scabbard mounts (a frequent type in Avar contexts, but with a distribution from Central Asia to Northern Italy), and a sword belt decorated with numerous gold and silver fittings in 'heraldic' style. At his feet, the horse gear had been deposited: an iron horse bit, an iron stirrup with a golden strap end, and what appeared to be a complete horse harness with bronze and silver fittings. A shallow pit between the male skeleton and the entrance held a large bronze bowl, a chain-mail breast patch, a decorated belt and about 15 arrows.

http://www.rdg.ac.uk/archaeology/Research/Russia/klinyar.htm

picture of Alan-bowmen from the Dutch site: http://users.pandora.be/vroege-middeleeuwen/avaren.htm

The Alani also had a unique fighting style; rather than the short bow and short sword of the typical Steppe fighter, the Alani favored the long wooded lance for frontal attack, and the very heavy two-handed “Barbarian” sword strapped across his back for “close work”. Both the Alan warrior and his horse were heavily armored against the light darts of their enemies, who fought more in the style of the Sioux in a 1950’s Hollywood movie, wildly charging their slow-moving adversary, looking to isolate and destroy individual Alan horseman, while the Alani fought more like a highly disciplined World War II tank corps, destroying everything they could catch. The Alani had the advantage that they rarely lost a battle, but the down side was that they took heavy casualties in almost every encounter. The penalty for capture was almost certain death or life-long slavery, so the Alani warrior was strongly motivated to win. To make up for their heavy battle casualties, the Alani typically adopted the young boys and fertile women among their captives, killing off the babies, the young females and the old or crippled, and selling the men as slaves. While the Alani could hold their own against the undisciplined tribes of the Steppes, they were no match for the even more highly disciplined Roman Legions, and avoided contact whenever possible, or arranged to sell their services to the Romans as “native shock troops.”

http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/allen/Allen_Alan_surname_history.html

here's an interesting looking book on the Arms of various tribes, including the Alans, from my favourite place, Vedamsbooks:
http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no11179.htm

on the scaemsax and other germanic weapons, you can find some interesting links on my ANGLO-SAXON page under the weapons section.

though I imagine Berk might have some more informative info.

cheers, B.

 

[ACStudios]

Ben,

Thank you! You found some of the references I did, but SO many others too. It will take a while to look over these. Very interesting stuff and just what I was looking for too...

The photo image from the Dutch site is very a very good reference for what I'm doing. I knew that posting here was a good idea


Regards,

Alan

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by ACStudios
Thank you! You found some of the references I did, but SO many others too. It will take a while to look over these. Very interesting stuff and just what I was looking for too...

The photo image from the Dutch site is very a very good reference for what I'm doing. I knew that posting here was a good idea

Alan - no worries. I hope you'll share here from what you find out.

You might also try posting over at the Mediaeval Sword Forum @ Vikingsword.com - Lee Jones there knows a lot.

cheers, B.

 

[Bill Martino]

I'm impressed. Looks like Berk has found a very able assistant HI Research Librarian.

 

[ACStudios]

Originally posted by beoram
You might also try posting over at the Mediaeval Sword Forum @ Vikingsword.com - Lee Jones there knows a lot.

cheers, B.

Will do Ben. I'll digest all of this tonight after work. It make for great nightime reading

Alan

 

[Bill Martino]

I'll never digest it.

 

[Berkley]

Originally posted by Bill Martino
I'm impressed. Looks like Berk has found a very able assistant HI Research Librarian.

I'm impressed! Assistant, nothing - I vote we elect Ben as the official HI Researcher in Residence, and I'll stay on as Research Librarian emeritus for the occasional opportunity to add something new . In that spirit, I offer an account of the Alani's services as "native shock troops" in one of the Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World, the Battle of Chalons, A.D. 451:

The confederate armies of Romans and Visigoths at last met their great adversary face to face on the ample battle-ground of the Châlons plains. Aëtius commanded on the right of the allies ; King Theodoric on the left; and Sangipan, king of the Alans, whose fidelity was suspected, was placed purposely in the centre, and in the very front of the battle. Attila commanded his centre in person, at the head of his own countrymen.... [T]he Visigoths, infuriated, not dispirited, by their monarch's fall, routed the enemies opposed to them, and then wheeled upon the flank of the Hunnish centre, which had been engaged in a sanguinary and indecisive contest with the Alans.

 

[Bill Martino]

That might be a fair idea, Berk. Since your operation I notice you have not been as chipper as usual -- which is not that surprising. The day I came home from the bout of bypass surgery it took me about five minutes to to walk 50 feet to get inside. And the first time I fired up the computer I had to struggle to get the mouse to click!


Now if only I could accomplish the same thing!!!!!

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Berkley
I'm impressed! Assistant, nothing - I vote we elect Ben as the official HI Researcher in Residence, and I'll stay on as Research Librarian emeritus for the occasional opportunity to add something new

But I'm already Linguist in Residence, HI University of the Subcontinent (as approved by Walosi ).

Seriously though I'm happy to do research here, but I don't know that I can come up with bits as interesting as Berk has (like the broad arrow info).

cheers all, B.

 

[Zrazys]

Hello,

"Most Alars are illiterate though like on much of Gor"

The part of the quote on Gor led me to be suspicious of the qwhole quote. I believe that Gor is a science fiction/fantasy world. Also, what is a tharlarion?

I have never seen (nor heard of) any archeological evidence for "two-handed barbarian swords" All of the swords that have survived have been single-handed, most with blades under 30 inches.
I would think that most of the barbarians would have been limited to arrows and spears/lances as their main weapons. They were very wealthy with animals, but would not have had much else. Swords would have been very expensive and the quality steel would have been hard to come by, at least that's what I have gleaned from the things I have read.

Thanks.

 

[Walosi]

Zrazys, you are correct - The "Gor" reference is from novels by John Norman, a fantasy-sci fi writer of my youth. He used tribes and nations of "ancient earth" sometimes slightly altered in spelling, and adapted them to his own themes. While his imagination was capable of going full bore, his originality was two bricks shy of a load.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Walosi
Zrazys, you are correct - The "Gor" reference is from novels by John Norman, a fantasy-sci fi writer of my youth. He used tribes and nations of "ancient earth" sometimes slightly altered in spelling, and adapted them to his own themes. While his imagination was capable of going full bore, his originality was two bricks shy of a load.

I should have checked that one more closely

B.

 

[Walosi]

Ben, as literate as you are, there is little reason for you to have recognized "Gor" as a reference to a southwestern US pulp novelist His genre was sort of a Tarzan, but without Tarzan's finer sensibilities. We used to read his stuff under the covers with a flashlight - nothing much erotic, but no redeeming qualities, either. There is quite a cult of John Norman enthusiasts, nowadays, but most of his early fans outgrow him. At about eleven or twelve, usually.

 

[Berkley]

It's the three moons that let you know you're not in Kansas anymore

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Berkley
It's the three moons that let you know you're not in Kansas anymore

You're right Walosi - I'm not familiar with Gor or John Norman; though I've actually read a lot of pulpy sci-fi/fantasy in the past (it doesn't seem to hold my interest much anymore).

cheers, B.

 

[Yvsa]

Pulled one over on me....
At first I thought it sounded like Sc-Fi and then I thought, "No, it's taken from the language it's being talked about."
I thought that maybe tharlarion meant horse in Alans language.
Thanks!!!! I needed a good laugh at myself to keep me grounded.

 

[Walosi]

...a good laugh, leave a copy of ANY John Norman novel in a feminist reading room. Make sure you leave no fingerprints on it. You will be charged with arson, planting explosives, and ruining mothers, daughters and women in general....but the charges won't matter, because they will have ripped you to shreds long before you could be arrested. Dey don't wike him vewy well HEHEHEHEH

 

[ACStudios]

I caught the Gor reference in the first post (seeing as how I read all of them a few times when I was a youngin )... I just figured it got caught up in some of the things that Ben had loaded up. I seem to remember seeing that somewhere else too.

I'm still wading through the links (and I'm on a loner computer while babysitting doggies... much slower connection), but the reference to broadswords, Monty Python and the charge/run-away tactics seem to be a "little" tongue and cheek. I'll have to look into it a little further to see if I can find another reference that verifies it.

Thanks again Ben... you have my vote for HI Researcher

Alan