OT: What's more important, what I think, or what is really true?

gravertom

gravertom

Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
1,163
hello again.

Since I promised not to comment further on other posts, I thought I would throw this out for discussion.

On the more philosophical type posts, many folks, myself included, make statements that could be called assertions.

The question- Is what I think about something the most important thing, or whether what I think about it is true or not?

If possible, I would like to hear why someone believes as they do with respect to this question, and for some consideration as to what the consequences of ones beliefs might be.

Thanks for letting me hang around! :)

Tom
 
gravertom said:
Is what I think about something the most important thing, or whether what I think about it is true or not?
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Depends on what you mean by "the most important thing" -

If I believe a rock is too heavy for me to move, and therefore I don't attempt to move it, then in this case my belief was the most important thing regarding my behavior. The true weight of the rock really didn't matter.

However if I believe I can move it, and try but the rock is indeed too heavy, then my erroneous belief mattered little. My belief doesn't have any impact on the actual weight of the rock. If by most important thing you mean that actual weight of the rock or my actual strength to move it then my belief doesn't have any impact at all.
 
I think it depends of what you are thinking about. If you believe the world is flat then you could be in trouble. If you think 28 million fairys can dance on a pin head then so what.
 
Everyone's wrong so far. Clearly, what's MOST important is waht I think about said subject. ;)

Seriously though, depends on the subject, as Uncle Bill said.
 
John-Boy said:
Depends on what you mean by "the most important thing" -

If I believe a rock is too heavy for me to move, and therefore I don't attempt to move it, then in this case my belief was the most important thing regarding my behavior. The true weight of the rock really didn't matter.

However if I believe I can move it, and try but the rock is indeed too heavy, then my erroneous belief mattered little. My belief doesn't have any impact on the actual weight of the rock. If by most important thing you mean that actual weight of the rock or my actual strength to move it then my belief doesn't have any impact at all.
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What ever it was you just said, I agree....I think...maybe... What did you say??:confused:
 
What they said,
but I'll ramble on anyway.
:)

In summary,
both.
If this were a forced-choice test,
I'd have to, arguably, come down on the side of truth.
For why, see below.

On the most basic level,
what we believe is a result of exposure, experience, and training;
integral to & with bias induced by family/culture/environment/society.
(ignoring at this moment spiritual intervention/guidance as seperate)

What is true?
What is truth?

It is true that (I think) my Granny baked
the best biscuits in the known universe.
Empiricly, it is true that Aunt Edie will get mad
if she sees you looking at her shoes.
(Why?.......Maybe a therapist could say.)
It is true that if I hit my finger with a hammer
(assume normal definitions, no wordplay or tricks)
I will make a loud sound from the shock & pain.
It is true that if I then drop the hammer it will fall.

From the point of my beliefs,
(but, again, ignoring any claim to Cause/Origin/Will regarding the Universe)
I assert that the Universe is governed by
-ultimately- knowable spiritual & physical
laws/rules/predictability.

Whether we know or accept those laws matters not to the laws.

If we believe we can walk on air
and then step off a cliff
the law of gravity prevails
& we reach whatever conclusion the circumstance provides.

Spiritual laws are just as real,
but not as easily observed.
I'm sure that those of us who believe in the power of
prayer/smoke/good vibes often offered here;
can see benefit from doing so.
Those who have not believed in prayer
likely still do not believe in prayer.

But, with regard to established spiritual laws of the Universe,
believing or understanding is irrelevant;
they function just as purely as gravity.

And just as with gravity/physical laws,
we can always learn more deeply & broadly about it/them.


Whatever that I believe to be true;
I interact with people.
I benefit from whatever truth I incorporate:
Spiritual laws
Physical laws
personal & social psychology
..........
whatever helps me predict the outcome of my actions.
Short term, long term, personally, socially
 
Bill Martino said:
I think it depends of what you are thinking about. If you believe the world is flat then you could be in trouble. If you think 28 million fairys can dance on a pin head then so what.
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I like your attitude, Uncle. Too often people argue about what those fairies look like, the exact number, and what dance they're doing.
 
I have thought about this question, its a good one Gravertom, and I have a counter-question.

Is it ethical/moral to teach ones children things that you want them to believe, even if you dont really believe it?

I have, on occasion, said things I didnt totally believe to stimulate thought, as Firkin figured out, beyond and outside of ourselves.

I dont mean to demean anyones "beliefs", I want them to reconsider and ask some good hard questions of their beliefs and themselves.
 
But, with regard to established spiritual laws of the Universe,
believing or understanding is irrelevant;
they function just as purely as gravity.
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I am totally in agreement with that.

Sorry my initial post was not more precisely worded! ;)

Danny, I do believe that asking questions and setting theorys/ concepts before others for purposes of learning is a good thing. I would never teach something AS TRUE that I did not believe to be so. For example, I would never teach my children to believe in God so they have an easier time in our culture, if I did not believe in God myself.

I do appreciate the thought provoking posts you and others have offered. No hard feelings here, And the mental/spiritual exercise is good for me.

Tom
 
Both.
It depends on the question, really. Gravity will likely affect you whether you believe in it, or not.

Faith, OTOH, is about the unproveable. That's the whole point- if it could be proven, there would be no need for faith.

Personally, I have little faith left...but lots of hope, joy and love.

John
 
I'm still admiring what Ben had to say in another thread as I really, really, do like what he said as it fits right in with what I believe to be true.

"Religion requires you to "believe," which is why it is called "faith."
Spirituality does not require "faith" or "belief," but depends on direct knowledge of God, which can only come from God.

So to me it is, "whether what I think about it is true or not?"


What most Christians find hard to deal with is how come someone doesn't believe in Christianity or the Bible.
In my experience with Christians talking to me about religion they truly do believe what there saying to be true and find it incredulous that I do not believe one iota of it, even though I once studied the Bible fervently and was even nominated for a deaconship post in the church I attended.
I couldn't be a Christian as I had many doubts that finally got me to where I am today starting many, many, years ago.
The Old Ways I follow are a lot tougher and harder to stay with than Christianity, yet I have no problem living what I believe although sometimes the temptations are difficult to struggle against.
 
IMHO:

Under Roman law ( IIRC ) the giver of the law is above the law.

Under American precedent all citizens are under the law.

It's easier to explain under Roman law. God is the lawgiver, and he doesn't have to explain his apparent contradictions to you.

Legalism is ultimately an attempt to limit God's power and means to our understanding. As such it is forbidden under the same commandment as taking God's name in vain - which means trying to coerce God to do your will. That's called witchcraft, incidentally.

You have the right to define truth and faith as you wish.

You do not have the right to impose your definition on my beliefs. Well, you can try - subject to the risk of being shot, and shot again.

;) ;) ;)
 
Rusty said:
You do not have the right to impose your definition on my beliefs. Well, you can try - subject to the risk of being shot, and shot again.

;) ;) ;)
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Well spoken Bro!:)
 
Well, I believe... I'll have another beer! :D :D

Cheers!


Norm (no jokes please from fans of the show!) ;)
 
uh, oh, I thot we weren't supposed to drink and type. That could lead to ya having to take 'defensive typing courses!":D:D:D
 
Rusty said:
Well, you can try - subject to the risk of being shot, and shot again.

;) ;) ;)
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Reminds me of a sign I once saw on some private property.

"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." ;)
 
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