Otter knives hardness and a new steel.

J

Jim malone

Joined
May 25, 2007
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1,157
I post this in traditional blades because Otter knives seem to have more traditional models and appeal to the traditionalist more then the general public.

So i asked Otter on what hardness they run their Carbon and stainless steel and this is the reply i got.

"our stainless steel 1.4034 and the C75 steel both have a RC of 56-58. The Böhler steel we use as well as the soon to be used new steel 14C28N have values of 60-61 rockwell.
We use the same steel for all our brands and product lines."

So apparently Otter is going to offer knives in Sandvik 14C28N in the near future. Not a super steel but apparently not a bad one either. The hardness they run their 1.4034 seems comparable to 420HC. I don't know if they can go higher on the carbon steel. The hardness of RC 60-61 on the Bohler steel (N690?) and Sandvik 14C28N seems adequate enough for a user knife without pushing the cost out of the window.

The brands would be: Otter, Mercator, Rotwild and the Springer version of the Hubertus knife.
 
Yes, i have the springer and a brass Mercator. Very nice knives, perfect lockup. No bladeplay yet.
 
I am tired of sub 58 HRC on knives as for me every knife I have used with an HRC below 58 just has not held an edge long enough so I am happy to hear this plus I have had great experience with the Sandvik steel on other knives.
 
B1GSHOT said:
I have a couple of these on order. They should arrive next week. They look like good solid work knives.
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I'll be looking forward to pictures, when they arrive.

For what it's worth, my Otters are good working tools that perform well at "sub 58 HRC." They do require some care, as they are inclined to rust.
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I remember when 60-61 hardness was considered "file hard", and really not desirable for knife blades. I suppose the newer steels can be hardened to that and still not become brittle... I'm good with 57-59... somewhere in that range.

The Sandvik steel makes a pretty good knife blade.. I have several of them, and they all take/hold a good edge.
 
Yes, iirc blades with a RC over 60 need a diamond or CBN stone to have any meaningfull sharpening impact on a blade. I'm still an old school sharpmaker user and a strop with green compound and this has served me well. But with all these super steels i worry that the blades will become to hard and a pita to sharpen without investing in a fancy expensive system. I just want steel that you can get supersharp but doesn't become brittle, that deforms instead of chipping and that i can maintain in the old school way. I don't mind that i have to sharpen it faster. I'm a carrier more then a user so my knives are only light duty at this moment. This means cutting light plastic foil once a day. Opening boxes etc. Cutting string. EDC stuff. And i'm getting more and more convinced that "user friendly" should be a parameter in steel choice as well. The German Solingen brands have been using their basic steel for decades and most users never complaint. I would like to opt for a strong, stainless, tough steel that can be sharpened by someone with basic tools and basic knowledge to a very good user edge. And a steel that won't break the bank. Our fathers and grandfathers never complaint about the steel getting dull because that's what happend if you used it . And then you sharpened it. Maybe we got spoiled with our rich pallet of steels and now every steel looks inferior to the latest and greatest. I remember G1, ATS34, VG10, 154CM, 420HC and i don't recollect feeling beeing "understeeled" by the steel. Someone posted a post on a forum a few weeks ago that he was disappointed that a model used "substandard" S30V steel!
 
Well, I want to make a clarification… I like supersteels and I have a few knives with hard steel. But that is for a different kind of knife. Something special. A $50 work knife is a whole different animal, and putting super steel in a work knife would be like putting racing tires on a Yugo. I want a work knife to be easy to strop and sharpen so I can do it quick at the end of a day. I also want to be able to use a work knife as a beater and not have to worry about damaging it or losing it. Every tool has its own purpose.
 
I did not have great expectation from C75 before buying otter anchor. I was very well surprised. It takes an amazing edge and keeps it that hair whittling edge even after some time sitting in a drawer. Minding you that hair whittling edges disappears without any use after some time. I have not used it extensively but am quite happy with C75.
 
Jim malone said:
Yes, iirc blades with a RC over 60 need a diamond or CBN stone to have any meaningfull sharpening impact on a blade.
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No this is not correct. What determines the type of sharpening stone you require is mostly the carbide properties in the steel. Iron and choromium carbide steels can be sharpened with anything, harder carbide steels (i.e. Tungsten, niobium and vanadium carbide) benefits from CBN and diamond. You can still get decent results with regullar stones for harder carbides steels, but the best performane can be obtained by CBN/Diamond. The only expection is when the steel is too soft (i.e. <57) and in that case what you actually need is not a diamond or cbn stone.
 
I’m reluctant to participate in these seemingly endless steel debates, but I’m genuinely curious what people are doing with their knives which require such hard steels and extreme edge retention.

I can carve hardwood until my hands start to cramp using a carbon steel Opinel, Mora, or Pallares knife, and they still slice through paper cleanly afterwards. I touch them up on a fine ceramic rod afterwards anyway.

Commercial fishermen and slaughter house workers use plain old industrial-grade stainless knives and it serves them just fine.

I also don’t want a knife that will chip if I unexpectedly hit something like a nail or staple.
 
Just Tom. said:
I’m genuinely curious what people are doing with their knives which require such hard steels
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I think it much more about bragging rights than anything else... or just an appreciation for having the finer things in life.
Same could be said about pocket knives in general; Why spend so much to get an exclusive GEC when a Case Yellow Trapper will do the job just fine.
Nobody's going to say, "Oh Wow... How'd you get one of them Yellow Delrin Case knives? You are super lucky." 🤣
 
Just Tom. said:
I’m reluctant to participate in these seemingly endless steel debates, but I’m genuinely curious what people are doing with their knives which require such hard steels and extreme edge retention.
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There are some cases where they are useful. Woodcarving is not one of those cases. But when you cut organic or abrasive matter it makes a difference.

My kitchen is a testing platform for different steels. Currently, I have two stainless moras, on LC200 N knife, one 52100 paring knife, one RWL 34 kitchen knife at 64 HRC and Z-MAX mule at 68 HRC. When I need to cut an outdated tomato with soft flesh I grab Z-MAX high carbide edge excel at cutting such soft and difficult to cut through material. It simply bites into the tomato even if it is duller than other knives, while the others knives just glide over if they are just lightly dull.
 
murat1983 said:
Similar thing when cleaning a fish, high carbide steels really helps.
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Maybe. If I understand you correctly, it seems like you are describing large carbides acting as sort of micro-serrations.

I guess, based on my own somewhat limited experience, I would argue that toughness and ease of sharpening are really important for real-world applications, and from what I “understand” from reading stuff on the internet, those qualities are sacrificed somewhat with higher hardness steels.

I worked on a commercial salmon troller for a couple of months when I was a teenager in the mid 1980s, and caught and cleaned sometimes a couple hundred large salmon in a day. Granted it was a long time ago, but I recall the skipper used to sharpen the knives periodically, and I noticed an increase in performance when he did, but I don’t recall him doing it more than once a day or so. I’m sure these were not any special steel. So what are people doing with their knives that is more demanding than that?

These days, I go to a nearby slaughter house 2-3 times a year to get an animal butchered. The guy there uses some sort of industrial-grade stainless knives. He does pass them over a steel fairly frequently, but he does an impressive amount of processing in between. And I know they are sharp, because he hands me one to do the actual slaughtering with. How many carcasses are people cutting up daily with their super steels?

I certainly don’t begrudge folks their enthusiasm for new and exciting materials, but I do wonder what experience their disdain for some of the more traditional stuff is based on.
 
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