Our shop (was) hiring!

Ta2ude said:
I am not sure I completely understand this rationale, but I am sure there is sound reasoning behind it. I myself have an extensive machining background (18yrs)and am a licensed Tool & Die Maker as well as a licensed Machinist. I started in the trade straight out of high school and got an apprenticeship at a tool & cutter grind shop where we made custom tooling as well as sharpened cutting tools. I have worked with almost every type of tool steel, carbon steel, high speed steel,alloy steel etc. as well as many types of mild steel, stainless, aluminum, titanium,and magnesium etc. I've learned a lot about heat treating and the properties of said steels and their heat treats and the purpose for them.

Because of my quest for knowledge and my A.D.D., I tended to change jobs/shops every 3 years or so. I've worked on parts for everything, from airplane landing gears to the most basic mundane square block, I've made parts for satellites that I would imagine are still orbiting our planet to this day. I tried to steer clear of large union shops and worked mostly in smaller custom jobbing shops but I've ran everything from a small tool room lathe to one that was so large it could take most of your shift to make 2 cuts on a piece. I've ran little bridgeport mills to huge boring mills that had their own elevator. I've also worked with extremely tight tolerances that only someone who has been in the field could truly understand. I've ran jig grinder's with working tolerances in the 10ths of a 10th, where the temperature of the environment alone can put you in and out of spec if your not careful.

I could go on, but I've probably already lost some readers and I don't want to sound like I am bragging myself up or get too far off the point which would be that... I am sure that someone with a strong machining background could easily be trained to make knives, I am not so sure that someone who makes knives though could become a great machinist? I am in NO way trying to undermine any knife maker or their abilities it's just that I've always held the belief that experience can't be bought and it takes a multitude of experiences in machining to become truly good at the craft. I have held a personal theory that about 1 in 10 people are actually good at what they do, whether you are a machinist or a doctor or whatever? and about 1 in a 100 are truly exceptional. Now with all that being said in all my years of experience I have never made a knife, but I can't imagine the process being something I could not accomplish with some training/guidance from the right individual.

With all due respect I am not trying to tarnish this thread or question your rationale I am just trying to understand it. I've moved on from machining and had my own flooring business for the last 10 years and am currently in the process of changing careers again and am now working with my wife and business partner at our automotive repair facility. Carpal tunnel and my ageing body where as much a factor in this most recent career change as was our need to employ someone else to handle our growing business. If you were local to me I would most certainly be interested in the great opportunity you currently offer but alas I am not. I am however intrigued as to what makes you believe it is easier to train a knife maker to become a machinist than it is to do the opposite?


I certainly wish you the best of luck in your search for employees and I hope it happens sooner than later, as I have gained a great admiration for Carothers Performance Knives and their products and look forward to expanding my personal collection of them.
I hope I haven't insulted anyone or derailed this post in anyway and I also hope that I haven't come across as some sort of douche, as my literary skills have always been my downfall and I sometimes find it difficult to convey my thoughts properly in written text.
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This is a fair question.

I've trained people in knife production processes and I've trained people in machining operations and I've found it's more straight forward to teach someone how to machine. What it boils down to is that machining is a knowledge based skill you can learn by reading and observing others, then making a machine tool do what you want it to do. Knife making is an experience based skill you learn by practicing and observing very critically the outcome of your efforts to train your body to do what you want it to. Your body is the machine. It's a hand-brain connection thing.

Or, to put it another way, a machinist can set his SFM and DOC by ear, but he shouldn't. But a knifemaker must. In fact, a skilled maker can do a good grind with his eyes closed, because it's done by touch and sound as much as anything else.

You can ease somebody into machining by giving them increasingly more complex tasks. That same approach doesn't work when grinding bevels.

It is almost universal with knifemakers that they develop over time and can look at earlier work and see flaws they couldn't see when the work was made. It is a common mark of a novice maker to polish the hell out of their work but leave deep scratches visible, and to make a piece "nicer" by making it more ornate (file work etc) rather than cleaner. Becoming skilled at knifemaking boils down to developing your ability to see. Clean work has consistent scratch pattern, even bevels and chamfers and no waves and undulations in the geometry. Everyone can see these things if they're egregious, but it takes a trained eye to see them if they're subtle.

A skilled machinist has a developed eye and can probably eyeball a dimension of .040" to within .005". But then fail to notice the bevel height on one side of a blade differing from the other by a much larger amount.

Speaking from personal experience, a machinist has skills that lend themselves to knifemaking, but it's not the whole package. I've been down this road before, and I've decided that this time I want somebody who can hit the ground running without making a bunch of blades that end up getting buried in the creek.
 
Thank you for the education Nathan, that explanation makes perfect sense to me.

At the tool and cutter grinder shop where I did my apprenticeship a couple of the most experienced people where the ones that finished ground the end of ball nose end-mills, this was all done by hand and feel rather than by dressing a radius into a grinding wheel.They would then check their work on an optical comparator for accuracy. They made it look extremely easy but it required years of experience to perform effectively.
 
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It's a great chicken or the egg debate. Machinist or knifemaker....

I grew up in a woodworking family business. I have put maybe over a million board feet of lumber through tablesaws and sanders, starting at age 10. My grandfather and father trained my brother and I how to work with wood. It identify wood species. To know how various species machine and their qualities. Compared to some craftsmen out there, I am a total novice. I have only recently started applying what I know as a woodworker and a mechanical engineer to the process of making handles for knives and pistols. I enjoy the process of figuring out how to machine each detail into a set of handles and make it repeatable and not blow up a set of $40 blanks.

In many ways I feel like I am completely starting over (but I have a huge head start having learned how to machine wood). I know when to cut a piece with the bit turning into the grain and when climb feeding might be necessary. Knowing all that, I would love to apprentice with someone who could teach me why certain knife handles are shaped the way they are. I am only just beginning to realize there is so much more to it than the rounded straight bit you hang on to.

Not arguing one way or the other here. I am sitting here with my coffee this morning daydreaming about how awesome it would be to be able to apprentice and learn the trade of a machinist in the environment of knife making.
 
Jo the Machinist said:
(snip)...

The right candidate will be very competent at blade grinding and have a fine eye for detail and quality workmanship and a willingness to learn.

(snip) .
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I'm not sure how many people here is familiar with his work, but how cool would it be if Josh at Razor Edge Knives came to work with the Carothers?

His services are offered here on Blade Forums; does outstanding regrinding, finishing, and sharpening on all types of blades. He's not a full blown bladesmith, but seems to fit the ideal candidate description.
 
What an awesome opportunity. I hope the person you choose works out well.
 
resinguy said:
So, where is this creek?
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Woods behind the shop/house:

creek.jpg~original
 
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