Out of Curiosity, What's the Big Deal?

[Ankerson]

So basically....you're saying that all companies that have products that are made in say....china (or taiwan or india etc) are treating their workers badly....

So Spyderco, Buck, Kershaw etc etc etc all exploit their workers.

I'm not suggesting everything is well at all. But I just don't buy into the whole "oh noes!! it's from china, everything from china is bad" mentality. If you have knowledge of people being abused in the factories in china then you might want to go and talk to Sal Glesser for instance, I'm sure he'd be happy to hear about it so he can do something about it.

I have seen NO evidence with my own eyes, nor has evidence ever been presented to me of people being abused in chinese factories from the companies that I buy from. If I'm wrong then maybe you could enlighten us all instead of wildly generalising.

I am sure there are some that do treat their workers badly, but not all just like anyplace else in the world. Greed is very powerful and they will do anything possible to squeeze that last penny etc out of it.

Workers do get exploited and or treated badly and overworked etc.

I am not saying they all do it, but in the interest of the bottom line there are a lot of that do and will continue to do so.

The worse the Economy gets and the higher the unemployment the worse the workers are treated believe me. It's a real pattern that I have seen over and over for the past 25+ years of working.

They know they can treat their workers like crap because they have no place else to go except unemployment or some other part time job making a lot less.

It really does happen and it's not isolated either I can tell you that.

There are a ton of real jerks out there....

I have lost jobs because I refused to treat my people like slaves or animals.

 

[Tostig]

This has been brought up many times here.

I buy what I like.

If possible I prefer to keep my dollars in my own Country.

These days the above statement applies to very few products.

Anyone who says they only buy American needs to understand that every piece of entertainment related hardware in your place of dwelling was not made in America and most likely never will be.

Tostig

 

[Blackfeather]

You can all hate me for it but, I am not exactly patriotic. I don't bother with politics. I try to be a minimalist when possible so when I want a new knife I buy something that suits as many needs as possible, regardless of origin. I have some "made in China" knock offs that I have personally worked on and improved. If I worry about others' well being and about who makes the money in the end it just makes me feel like the money I paid is about feeding the greed and not buying a tool for my own uses. I see everyone here as collectors but when you worry so much about the money involved it seems like you are more about making donations....

Sorry, my opinion. Also, newest knife is from CRKT. It suits my needs.

 

[gazz98]

@Gazz98

I don't have a problem with people liking products from the place they're from. Just don't dress it up behind some kind of excuse.

I think your reason is a very valid one. At least you're honest about it. Guess I've just never really seen the logic behind patriotism. Very often it's spouted as "It may be crap, it may be worthless....but it's OUR worthless crap so we must be proud of it."

There's nothing wrong with pride.....but pride for pride's sake makes no sense to me.

What can I say, some of us (especially the older folks) aren't happy with the decline of our manufacturing industry and dependence on imported products for things we made in our own country a few decades ago. This isn't something that happened over centuries, it happened over a few decades, which many of us can remember (I'll be 40 this year). You can debate American quality vs the rest of world if you want, I won't bother. America, by most standards, is a young country (2010-1776 = 234 years old) and we don't have the long history or traditions of most of the rest of the world. We are proud of what this melting pot of a country has accomplished in it's rather short tenure. Made in America means something to me. I guess if that's pride for prides sake, I'm guilty.

 

[Jack142]

Hi Gang,
I've read the threads and everybody has there opinion and there are several good points. I try to buy USA made just because I am an American.
I do not buy USA made all the time. In fact its hard to buy USA made because there is such a small market now. No more Shrade, or Western etc.
How many knife companies here in the US are now gone and those jobs are lost forever ?
Not only Knives but a lot of other manufacturing is now gone overseas.
When I was a kid growing up in NJ, there were several factories producing differant items for sale. They are now all gone !
This leads me to a question, What do we make ?? What do we create?manufacture to sell and help our economy grow ??
oh well take care
Jack

 

[Gator97]

TO clarify my position - I have no problems buying quality stuff from whatever country, which is quite clearly indicated by my knife collection, it's on the web, including origins of each knife. I don't view supporting US junk producers as patriotic, to the contrary, buying bad US products is a disservice.

I'm not suggesting everything is well at all...
If I'm wrong then maybe you could enlighten us all instead of wildly generalising.

You are suggesting all is well with all the companies, unless a dozen of their workers commit suicide in a short period of time. That's pretty much what you said and repeated, despite of "generalisations".
I wouldn't really bother replying to you if your initial post wasn't so categorical in the statements. But whatever.

Apologies to the OP, this doesn't really belong here, more in the political probably. And I really have no intention to debate workers conditions in China.

 

[LX_Emergency]

TO clarify my position - I have no problems buying quality stuff from whatever country, which is quite clearly indicated by my knife collection, it's on the web, including origins of each knife. I don't view supporting US junk producers as patriotic, to the contrary, buying bad US products is a disservice.


You are suggesting all is well with all the companies, unless a dozen of their workers commit suicide in a short period of time. That's pretty much what you said and repeated, despite of "generalisations".
I wouldn't really bother replying to you if your initial post wasn't so categorical in the statements. But whatever.

Apologies to the OP, this doesn't really belong here, more in the political probably. And I really have no intention to debate workers conditions in China.

I never suggested that it's oke that ANYONE commits suicide. That's something you yourself brought into the debate. I never suggested any indicators, I never suggested any boundaries or markers. That was all you.

 

[Jack142]

Hi Gang,
I've read the threads and everybody has there opinion and there are several good points. I try to buy USA made just because I am an American.
I do not buy USA made all the time. In fact its hard to buy USA made because there is such a small market now. No more Shrade, or Western etc.
How many knife companies here in the US are now gone and those jobs are lost forever ?
Not only Knives but a lot of other manufacturing is now gone overseas.
When I was a kid growing up in NJ, there were several factories producing differant items for sale. They are now all gone !
This leads me to a question, What do we make ?? What do we create?manufacture to sell and help our economy grow ??
oh well take care
Jack

 

[RevDevil]

3) patriotism. either by supporting the US economy rather than someone elses

This would be my own reason.:thumbup:

 

[Ken44]

At times it can be a tough to buy all American...BUT when it comes to knives it isn't.

We overall have better knife companys and makers than any country in the world IMO. I LOVE my country and its workers, and it also makes me feel good/proud to see "made in America", or to know it's made here.

I do have two knives made in Japan(out of around 125), and it does bother me just a tad when I use one, but not to much. Sold all my others not USA made.

Now IMO China is a HUGE differance, and I wouldn't have a knife from there if you gave it to me(even if they did make one worth having). I'm sure I do have some cheap crap in the house made by slave children, but knives are a passion of mine, and is much more personal to me than a toothpick holder for example.
I would hate to think what it would feel like to see "china" on my blade every time I opened it.


I'm very proud of this country, and feel its the best in the world. My Dad almost died from his wounds in WWII fighting for our freedoms. Being able to think freely for ourself is a great freedom, so I have no problem with others buying from whatever country they wish.

 

[Ankerson]

At times it can be a tough to buy all American...BUT when it comes to knives it isn't.

We overall have better knife companys and makers than any country in the world IMO. I LOVE my country and its workers, and it also makes me feel good/proud to see "made in America", or to know it's made here.

I do have two knives made in Japan(out of around 125), and it does bother me just a tad when I use one, but not to much. Sold all my others not USA made.

Now IMO China is a HUGE differance, and I wouldn't have a knife from there if you gave it to me(even if they did make one worth having). I'm sure I do have some cheap crap in the house made by slave children, but knives are a passion of mine, and is much more personal to me than a toothpick holder for example.
I would hate to think what it would feel like to see "china" on my blade every time I opened it.


I'm very proud of this country, and feel its the best in the world. My Dad almost died from his wounds in WWII fighting for our freedoms. Being able to think freely for ourself is a great freedom, so I have no problem with others buying from whatever country they wish.

My problem is that I know once a Country stops producing products it becomes a Country based on Consumers and that's not a good place to be in.

The USA has been going down hill fast for the past 40+ years as more Industries moved overseas.

We import way too much product in this Country supporting other Countries Economies IMO.

Way too many American Jobs have been lost in the process, jobs that are gone forever.

Yes while there are some who are based here in the USA and manufacture overseas, well they might employ some here in the in the USA but the bulk of their people are not in this Country so they are really supporting another countries life style and economy. They might have 50 or 100 people here in the USA, but another 1,000+ working in another Country. They get all the profit off the American people while not supporting the American Economy by manufacturing here.

Then we have the Huge Importers like a certain big Corp who is called the Chinese Import Company by many, but then they go right down and still shop there...... Yes I know they employ a lot of Americans, but by doing business they way they do and have in the past has hurt the US economy more than it could ever help it in the end.

We are all to blame though IMO as we have done this to ourselves so we really don't have any right to complain about it. As long as we continue to buy those cheap items sold by that company and others like them things will never get better, they will however continue to get worse.

Save Money, Live Better?

More like Save Money and go down the drain.....

Hasn't worked out very well for the US now has it?

The only ones who are living better are the Corp Management etc of the said Company and others like them who are laughing all the way to the bank while the US economy continues to get worse.

This Global Economy BS is a freaking joke made up by the Corps and the Corrupt Politicians who continue to get rich off of it.

We have done this to our selves by are own stupidity and ignorance.

So lets just keep on saving those few pennies while helping the economy continue to get worse and unemployment rates keep going up.

 

[mmarkh]

So basically....you're saying that all companies that have products that are made in say....china (or taiwan or india etc) are treating their workers badly....

So Spyderco, Buck, Kershaw etc etc etc all exploit their workers.

I'm not suggesting everything is well at all. But I just don't buy into the whole "oh noes!! it's from china, everything from china is bad" mentality. If you have knowledge of people being abused in the factories in china then you might want to go and talk to Sal Glesser for instance, I'm sure he'd be happy to hear about it so he can do something about it.

I have seen NO evidence with my own eyes, nor has evidence ever been presented to me of people being abused in chinese factories from the companies that I buy from. If I'm wrong then maybe you could enlighten us all instead of wildly generalising.

The reason that companies use China is because labor is so cheap. How many times do you really think Sal Glesser has been to the Chinese factories? I may be wrong but I'm thinking never.

 

[Badhammer]

The reason that companies use China is because labor is so cheap. How many times do you really think Sal Glesser has been to the Chinese factories? I may be wrong but I'm thinking never.

Why would you make an assumption like that rather than seek out the facts first?

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39368


Quoting Sal from the link posted above:

"Since it is Eric, Gail and I that that frequently travel to these and other countries worldwide (4-6 times per year) and it is Eric, Gail and I that visit the makers and try to teach them our standards and mfg methods, and it is Eric, Gail and I that decide who to work with and who not to work with; if you would really like to be educated in this area, I guess I can do it off topic."

 

[Dagon]

I am a European, and frankly my perception of a knife made in the USA has is not specially positive, nor negative, rather neutral (which is actually better than my opinion of USA cars compared to the German ones).
I simply like a quality/price that seems correct. In their way, Mora, Opinel and SAK score very well in that respect. So do the Taiwan-made Spyderco Sage 1,2,Chokwe, and Bushcraft - in fact they're very convincing. I do like the Golden and Seki-made Spydies as well.
I also think that patriotic buying tends to make companies lazy.
And whether we like it or not, economy is becoming more and more global. Companies that grasp this will be more succesfull in the long run than those who don't.
When labour is cheaper elsewhere, a local workforce must move up in skill level, hence a good and affordable education system is very important for long term prosperity in a country. It is well known that a strong focus on education was one of the important factors for the success of the German and Japanese economies.

 

[Deebo]

You are making a very important choice. Buying locally produced food and goods is the smart way to go. :thumbup:

The concept of buying "locally" doesn't apply unless you are buying from your immediate geographic area. Simply buying something that also happens to be in the same country doesn't qualify under that concept.

 

[Deebo]

True, but they could be employing a lot more Americans than they are if the products were made here.

I don't see how that's a likely possibility. Services are outsourced and performed overseas because the cost benefit ratio makes sense to do so.

It even happens within the United States. Immigrants will take a job, usually, for significantly less than an American domestically.

If the entire process took place in the U.S., expenses would likely increase and, in turn, likely make it less likely that they could employ even the same number of workers.

 

[Deebo]

Ok, the majority of knives made in asia are of crap quality, and sometimes crap material. Most knives made in the U.S. are handmade/handcrafted, and last a lifetime. I've had my buck for over 20 years, used it a lot, and it is still working like its new. That's the difference, made in the usa knives last a lifetime IF they are made of good material, and by a good company.

But doesn't that go for knives from literally any country of origin? If the knife is manufactured from quality materials by a quality company, shouldn't it last a lifetime regardless of where it's made?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The concept of buying "locally" doesn't apply unless you are buying from your immediate geographic area. Simply buying something that also happens to be in the same country doesn't qualify under that concept.

Where are you from again? You seem to have no idea about what "immediate geographic area" can mean to an American.

Even immigrants working here shop in local stores ...

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I have seen NO evidence with my own eyes, nor has evidence ever been presented to me of people being abused in chinese factories from the companies that I buy from. If I'm wrong then maybe you could enlighten us all instead of wildly generalising.

Have you been there to see what it's like?
Are any of us in a position to investigate every purchase?

People tend to buy certain brands because they have been satisfied with that brand's products over others. Buying nationally is an extension of that. Throwing in geopolitical stresses and enmities is an extension of that.

Is Chinese industry often abusive to its workers? By Western standards, probably. By Chinese standards, no. The new cities offer survival and a chance of prosperity compared to the abject poverty of their feudal past.

This topic stinks. It never leads to good conversation. It really belongs in the Political Arena, if anywhere, but in the Political Arena, it would have to be much more polite.

Of course, that should go for the General Knife Discussion, too.

I'm closing this thread. Open one in Politics if you want. I don't think we should allow it in General any more. It is not a knife topic.