Over sharpening your blades?

T. Erdelyi

T. Erdelyi

Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Messages
32,359
Just a question out of curiosity how many of you can really sharpen your knives with out the use of some type of clamp, guide, or V stick setup? After hangin' around the forum for the last couple of months I've noticed a trend in the, "Help Me Sharpen My Knife Threads".
It seems that alot of people are over sharpening their blades, at the rate some of you sharpen your blades, by years end you've removed so much of the edge that you've changed the geometry of the blade, which brings me to my next observation, and that is, that it seems people are having difficulty reprofiling their blades. Unless you've bought a POS, or significantly chipped the blade I see no reason to reprofile modern, quality production knives. It's been brought up many times that it's easier to maintain a sharp blade than it is to sharpen a dull one. A few minutes after use or at athe end of the day goes a long way to keeping a sharp knife.
I learned to sharpen at the hands of an old Portugese Butcher I used to work with, this guy could put a razor edge on a lawn mower blade, and he could do it with any sharpening system. He used to say, "...it was all in the mechanics of sharpening"

I learned a lot watching Pinto Sharpen his butcher knives, but one thing without fail was done at the end of every day, steeling his blades.

I believe if more people knew how to sharpen properly they might hang onto their knives longer, I know of a few people who regularly buy new knives when the old one will simply not cut any longer,(which is great for me as I get their hand me downs.

Well thanks for reading the ramblings of
 
I'm not that old (wishful thinking), but I remember when the only sharpening system out there was a simple flat stone, and that a very complicated setup was having a soft stone and then a hard stone.

Up till recently, when I got lazy and had some extra money, I got myself a Tru-hone

<img src=http://www.truhone.com/products/knife_sharpener.gif>

but before then, it has always been the flat stone sharpened by hand... The more practice I got with it, the faster and better I got. I only had to reprofile a blade once and ususally only when it was new. The trained hand will automatically go back to the correct angles and sharpen that knife in no time at all. But, the most important part of freehand sharpening is PRACTICE! Back then, I could sharpen a knife to a razors edge while watching TV. It's been 4 years since I sharpened one freehand and I'd be lucky if I can maintain the edge on a butter knife now...

And, Yes, Stropping and steeling is very important, as is cleaning and oiling the blade after sharpening.
 
Never heard of a Tru-hone. Is it mechanical. If so, how does it not mar the finish of the blades and/or ruin the temper?
 
Now that ya' mention it-

I once had the 'touch'. It was taught to me by my father who learned it from his father and my mothers father. The stone used by my maternal grandfather (he died before I was born unfortunately) was passed onto my father and then to me.

The 'stone' was an old Carborundum. We never used the 'rough' side only the smooth side. We never used oil on this stone either-the way I was taught was to spit on the stone and work it in, and ALWAYS work the blade across an old leather belt we had when finished. We never washed this stone in all the years we have had it in the family either.

I could put a 'hair popping' sharp edge on ANY high carbon knife (read OLD) I had from my smallest Old Timer to my grandfathers WWII KA-BAR. Even my old SS Swiss Army knives came out real sharp. I always worked free hand and without even knowing it I had profiled all my knives to my unique stroke and angle. Were they sharp? Many days I would show up at school and later work with the tell-tale shaved patches on both forearms. Yea, they were sharp- I had the 'touch'.

But wait....what is that new-fangled looking thing in that catalog? A LANSKY KNIFE SHARPENING SYSTEM!!! Boy, now I could sharpen any knife like a PRO! Perfect angles-and choice of angle too! I just had to have one, I just had too!

So what to my wondering eyes should appear? A Lansky Kit brought by eight tiny reindeer! Did it work? Like a charm. In fact it wasn't long before all my knives (this is before I had any 'high quality' stuff like ATS34 and such)were LANSKY SHARP!!!

But wait....

How much longer does it take to clamp and adjust and set up?
What do I do when the plastic stone holders are cracked?
I don't like the clamp bite marks on my good blades!
I keep running my hand off the stone (OUCH)!
Man, how many stones do I need to use with this thing?
Why do all my knives get so dull BEFORE THEY GET SHARP?
How do you sharpen a 7" KA-BAR with these toy stones?
etc. etc. etc.

No problem, I still have the Carborundom stone right?

Then it dawned on me (yea, I'm a little slow)-what Lansky thinks is perfect edge angle and what my hands thought was perfect edge angle aren't the same! All those years of hand profiling were wiped out by the wonder of modern technology.

I had lost the 'touch'.

Every so often I take one of my older pieces and re-profile it to my natural stroke (easy now!). And I have found that the ability to hand sharpen a blade without any mechanical help can be re-learned, but it takes time.

In the end nothing is easier to do than grabbing a good old stone and running my knife over it a few times at the end of the day (or throughout the day for that matter). No clamps, no oil, no guide rods; just me, my spit, and grandpa's stone.

Now about these new wonder steels..........:(

(Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker on the way!!!)

Mongrel :)

NOTE: I am not in anyway putting down the Lansky system. I can attest to the fact that it works. It's just that I got lazy using one and wish I had stuck to the simplicity of the flat stone.
 
i learned to sharpen knives from my dad, who was a barber 'till the late '60s and then retired cuz people didnt get haircuts anymore lol - but he did teach me to keep a great edge on knives, he stressed keeping a consistant angle/pressure, i still have many of his old strops/stones/etc, including 2 stones that are shaped like a regular ark stone, but dark brown in color, would be like a very fine ark stone, stamped NOX-ALL on the top, he swore by it for use on razors, doesnt work worth a flip on knives though...

when i was 13, i got a soft/hard ark set, before that used a coburundum stone, usually w/gun oil, and always had a steel/strop, so i was pretty high tech for the '70s, was the first person i knew to have a ark stone, they were pretty expensive then , i think $30 or so for my 2 stone set, that was a lot of $$ in those days, w/gas at 19cents a gallon

things change...


sifu
 
Heh.. i'm busy learning how to sharpen freehanded well. :D
I have a gatco clone of the lansky...
 
at the risk of sounding like an infomercial, I'd have to say that the damn thing is absolutely great for most knives. A completely new profile and grind can be done in a matter of a minute. The only drawback is that the grind will be imperfect for approximately one centimeter at the base of the knife edge (closest part to the handle).

The angles of the profile as well as both bevels are completely adjustable, although the istructions have a set way of doing things, a little experimenting and notation will give you the option of choosing whatever angle you want.

Now, what the Tru-Hone is two sets of grinding wheels that overlap in an alternating fashion. The wheels spin at an adjustable speed and the knife is drawn through the "V" between the wheels. Yes, you can severly screw up a knife with this machine, but this is a professional industrial knife sharpener and will thus require some amount of training, finesse and practice. It does, however, take much less skill, time and practice than doing the same thing with the flat stone.
<img src=http://www.sharpknives.com/sharpener_images/tru_hone.jpg>
Try this link...
http://www.sharpknives.com/tru_hone_knife_sharpeners.htm

The grinding wheels are some sort of pink 220 grit grinding wheels so after you've run your knife through the process, you've got a razor sharp knife, but you don't have the polished edge so I run it over the fine and ultra-fine spyderco ceramic stones and then finish up with a leather belt.

Now, as long as you use it correctly, you won't have a problem marring your blade (except for the first centimeter) or screwing up the temper. You use a firm but not heavy grip. Smooth, reasonably quick, but not fast strokes, and you let the blade rest and cool after every set. You may on occasion nick the handguard or handle of the knife against the grinding wheels, so be very careful, and/or sharpen only knives you don't mind a little cosmetic damage on.

Again, these were designed for commercial working knives, they're excellent for personal use, combat and field knives.

One of the few things I would not use this system for are show knives, expensive custom blades, or very short knives.

I lucked out and got mine from a deli that was going out of business for about 3 bills, but I hear new ones go for about 7...
 
I use the DMT Coarse (blue) stone...
Then the Spyderco Med brown stone... then the white fine... followed by the Ultra-fine (which I also hear them called a dental stone) then stropping.
 
I use a flat Arkansas medium grit stone with water (I know, I know, oil is suposed to work better). Works fine for me. I've heard India waterstones are better though.
 
Learned how to sharpen freehand when I was a kid. For years (actually, decades) I used the soft and hard Arkansas stones from a Buck sharpening kit. Then I got a Sharpmaker and used it for everything.

Now, it depends on the knife and why I'm sharpening it. I use a DMT coarse/fine diafold as well as the Sharpmaker. Currently, my favorite edge is obtained by using the fine diamond and then finishing with either the fine or ultra-fine rods on the Sharpmaker. Just finished a re-profiling job (the maker's edge was 45+ degrees with a somewhat concave bevel and I wanted it at 40 degrees so that I can touch it up with the Sharpmaker) where I used, in sequence, the coarse diamond, fine diamond, medium ceramic, fine ceramic, and ultra-fine ceramic in order to get the edge I wanted.
 
T. Erdelyi :

Unless you've bought a POS, or significantly chipped the blade I see no reason to reprofile modern, quality production knives.
Click to expand...

Most modern blades have edges that are far too thick and obtuse for the necessary level of durability required for cutting common materials. Thus you can gain greater cutting ability and edge retention by altering the profile significantly. Depends on what you cut on a regular basis of course. Experince is the key, bring the edge down until it gets damaged too frequently.

As you mention, edge maintance techniques like stropping and steeling will go a long way in extending the lifetime of your blade. You do these before you start the cutting though, not after. For most modern metals, a ceramic or diamond rod works much better than a smooth steel. MPS started a solid dicussion on this on rec.knives awhile back [Is the butcher's "steel" obsolete - was the title, you can find it in google] .

-Cliff
 
This is exactly why I prefer convex grinds. All I need is a couple different grits of wet/dry paper, and I'm all sorts of sharp. Convex is a no fuss option.

I do initially reprofile my v-grind edge bevels, so that they match up perfectly to either the 30 or 40 degree SharpMaker angles. This makes future resharps much easier.
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
T. Erdelyi :
Most modern blades have edges that are far too thick and obtuse for the necessary level of durability required for cutting common materials.
-Cliff
Click to expand...
Cliff do you really believe that most quality production folders have too obtuse of an angle? Most of the BMs, Spydercos, Berettas,Gerbers, and Bokers I've come across come outa da box shavin' sharp,( and I know that hair popin' sharp is really no indication of tru sharpness)my experience with medium quality blades, $100+ have all had relatively accute angles. These knives need to have a utalitarian angle in order to fufill their function, as "Tactical", but to grind these down to a 17 degree angle,(chosen as an arbitrary number) makes the edge IMO too fragile to be used as a everyday utility blade. Maybe on a smaller hollow ground pocket knife, this would be acceptable, but the majority of the blades I've seen discussed here on this forum in the last coupl of months would be done a great disservice to be reprofiled to a very accute angle.
The engineers and designers that create these medium range folders had some sort of all around multi use angle in mind.
Cliff, I hold your opinion in the highest esteem, and I'm just offering my humble response to yours.
One question I have thogh is what general angle would you put to the various production tactical folders out there?
 
Before I bought the Edgepro, I worried about the same thing. The system comes with five stones (although the coarse one appears to only be good for the impatient and hatchets) and the finer stones remove very little metal.

I check the edge with a lighted loupe, assess what needs to be done, and pick the finest stone needed for the job. I touch up some edges with the polishing tapes.

I don't think my most often sharpened blades are "disappearing," and the blades stay sharp. Some of the softest blades that get used the most get a weekly touch-up. Things are working out.
 
Freehand sharpening is something I REALLY wish I could do. Well, I wish I could do it RIGHT. I use a Lansky and get pretty good results but as a first generation Knife knut have never been shown how to freehand sharpen. I was thinking of posting to see if there are any videos out there that demonstrate it.
 
@T. Erdelyi:
"Shaving hair" is not the problem here, even a freshly sharpened 50 degree bevel will shave hair. It's about cutting, not shaving. And i agree with Cliff Stamp here. Most of the knives i bought, both folders and fixed blades, went right to the bench stone after i had a look at their edges. Manufacturers tend to "play it safe". No one will return his knife because "the edge is a bit too thick". But hundreds may return their knives if the manufacturer chooses to put a very fine edge on the blade that will not withstand moderate abuse. I guess most of the Spyderco and Benchmade customers are not "certified knife knuts" and may expect unreasonable toughness from their newly bought knifes.
I have thinned out the edge of nearly every knife i have, and i've yet to experience any chipping or bending. Reprofiling your blades takes some time, but i find it worth the effort.
 
You can even make a 90 degree angle sharp enough to shave hair, but its edge would be far too obtuse to be functional for just about anything else. Cliff's point is that most companies "overbuild" their knives (as he and others have demonstrated convincingly ad infinitum in the Reviews section) to market the product to the widest possible consumer audience. This overbuilding can often be seen in excessively thick stock, saber grinds on small folders, and (as is the issue here) overly thick edge profiles to compensate for their "lowest common denominator" consumer. This is not a slam on these companies; it is simply to say that they design their knives to meet the skill level not of the most experienced user, nor even the average user, but rather the most reckless and/or inexperienced user.

This is why experienced, "old school" woodsmen, fishermen, gardeners, hunters, etc., often prefer cheaper, proven knives like Opinels, Moras, etc., over currently popular brand names. The cheaper knives cut better because their designs are optimized for the highest possible performance, not the grossest possible errors. Interestingly, Capt. Scott O'Grady who was shot down over Bosnia and eluded capture by Bosnian Serbs (read his _Return with Honor_) preferred his SAK over his issued survival fixed blade because the latter couldn't cut nearly as well, he alleges. Now, I doubt the stainless steel in his SAK was either able to take a keener edge or was easier to sharpen than the 1095 in his fixed blade. But I suspect that the "better performance" of his SAK was due simply to its much keener edge profile -- the only factor, really, in which it was superior to the fixed aviator's knife.

Like Nightwind, I reprofile just about all of my knives now with thinner, convex edges. It dramatically increases performance, once I determine a knife's optimal edge angle through trial and error. It's not easy, but it is fun and very enlightening. This is probably the single best lesson I have learned on the forums here.

.02 --

Glen
 
I have been thinking of getting a Tru-Hone and was wondering how people that had them liked them. Also are there any blade shapes, grind styles, or steels? that they don't work well on?

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
I have been using the TruHone for about two months and am very impressed with it. I did order the 400 grit and 1000 grit water stones with it. The 400 stones are what I have left in it after sharpening everything (almost) I own with the 220 stones. The 400 stones give a better edge. The 1000 grit stones come with a different cover that has a sponge built in to keep the stones wet. This setup really hones and polishes edges very well. About the only knives it won't sharpen well are blades without much clearance between the edge and the handle. I'd say you need about 1/2 to 3/4 inch clearance to do a good job. If anyone wants more info on that I'll go out and actually measure the clearance. I just finished sharpening a Randall Gambler and Guardian to the best edges they have ever seen.

One more thing is that the customer service staff at TruHone is excellent. Once you have one the trainers will help you with some tips to maximize your use of the machine. Very pricey but the last sharpener you'll need, along with a Spyderco Sharpmaker.

Dean
Green Bay
 
I found the best sharpening method is a pretty much worn superfine (A16) tri-zact 3M belt running at high speed. If you want a convex edge, take the freehanging part of the belt and sharpen on that, if you want a flat edge, use the platen. After that I remove the burr on a buffer ( quick pass on each side, burred side first). Nice grabby razor sharp edge.

This does have a drawback.. if you miss your angle, you're screwed :D

I used to freehand sharpen on a set of sharpening stones, coarse, medium, fine and Belgian 'coticule'. Also a razor edge but take really long on harder hi-tech steels.

I also found out something else.. I mostly ask my customers which kind of edge they like. Some like it thin, other like it strong. Some like it coarse, others like it polished. So now I usually do my edges with it's use in mind. My current EDC combo is a BM Axis AFCK 2 806D2 and a MT LCC, the LCC carries a very thin razor sharp polished edge, while the AFCK has a thicker and coarser edge.

greetz and take care, Bart.
 
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