Overboard with Blade Thickness: Your Mod's Ramblings

k_estela

k_estela

Co-Moderator, Wilderness and Survival Skills Forum
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I am always amazed when I see guys attempting to use a heavy duty knife for fine delicate tasks. It is simple geometry that dictates, in part, how a knife will perform. In looking at many traditional knives from cultures unarguably known for their survival skills, it is easy to see a common theme, thin is in. An exception being the Kukhri with it's incredibly thick spine. The machete, for example, is thin stock and has been used for generations all over the world in tropical places. The humble Mora is a staple in many Scandinavian cultures. Even the classic slip joint has it's place in history of proven bushcraft blades here in the Americas. Where are all the traditional thick blades?

Fast forward to today and you'll find the "sharpened pry bars" or the "tactical chisels" in the hands of many aspiring woodsmen and women. At what point in our collective use of knives did we make the shift from thin to thick? Why do we find ourselves obsessed and using knives with overly thick edges and stock to accomplish delicate tasks? These answers will vary and there are many forum members that will insist on certain thickness. Perhaps internet cinder block knife gurus have conditioned us to believe thickness is necessary to survive. This is complete non-sense as true WILDERNESS survival skills will never require you to use a knife as a jackhammer. The thickness issue has been rehashed over and over but recently it has been on my mind so I had to express my views and pose this question.

How thick is thick enough? Is there an ideal thickness for a bush blade? As many of you know, some survival schools use the trusty Mora that is approximately 3/32" thick. This thin stock knife can handle most tasks but lateral stress (batonning through knots) can break a blade. The Wilderness Learning Center, where I teach, uses a Bark River Knife and Tool Fox River that is .170" thick. This thickness can accomplish all we throw at it but some would argue this .170" thickness is too thick. Is 1/8" thickness the pooridge Goldy Locks would have picked? Is .170" or approximately 5/32" that thickness when comparing it to .250" stock knives?

How do we come to a consensus? Is it even possible to come to a consensus or do we just agree to disagree? While I don't know if a single thickness is the perfect thickness, I know it is possible to be too thin and it is definitely possible to be too thick.

Your thoughts?
 
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Well thought out Kevin, when someone comes up with a 1/2-inch thick knife then I will really be out of my mind.
 
5/32" is about the top limit I like for a knife. But it also depends on other factors besides thickness. how wide is the blade and what grind is used? Is there any distal taper? My Fowler blade is 3/16" but it cuts a hell of a lot better than a lot of thinner knives I have due to the distal taper and well done convex edge.

I think a lot of people think 1/8" thick knifes are "weak" because the market has been flooded with so many incredibly thick knives lately. The trend seems to have started about 20 years ago and has gained momentum. You'll also notice most people also carry a folder that can actually cut something.
 
Bruce is right and if you guys don't belive it then knives will only get thicker and thicker. I have two Fowler blades that cut like thin knives even though the spine is 3/16-inch thick.
 
I like a max of 3/16. That being said, all my knives are 1/8 or 3/32 with the exception of my JK kephart which is 3/16. I chose to have it that thick cause it will be my workhorse for drilling, digging, batoning, and I just wanted it to have that stout heavy feel to it. It cuts like a 1/8 in blade though, a very useable knife. My other blades are of the thinner variety, although I dont think 1/8 is thin at all. I think it comes down too what you think you need, and what you really need. Some people want to be able to pry apart a bus with their knife, and thats stupid. Grab a prybar, you know- the right tool for the job-

I think for the most part we all seem to use the 1/8in variety, with some using the 3/32 ones. I would say that 1/8 is king right now, for bushy blades.....The 1/4, and 3/16in ones have kinda taken a backseat. Maybe the transition to thicker was because of several bad heattreated chinese knives floodin the market in the 80s. That might of soured peoples opinions of the strength of steel, so they overcompinsated. I dunno....
 
right now (meaning this could change any day now...;)) that 1/8" thick might just be the magical thickness, at least for me.

i have a CS kukri style blade in 1/8" thick (thanks kev!) as well as a mora in 1/8" thick steel, as well as a 12" machete in the same thickness...as well as many other knives. they all perform great. i have never worried about breaking any of these knives, and they all cut great.

1/8" is also the only thickness i have made knives from, since i think it is so great. i am going to order some thinner steel for some different patterns soon, but that's a different thread...

thick knives are popular, and whenever i read something by someone talking about their very thick, heavy knife, i always question how much they actually try to use that blade. i think that the thickness of a knife is (or should be) directly related to both its overall dimensions as well as the grind used and the purpose of the knife. a machete is long and has a saber grind, but its designed to slash brush and do light chopping, so its made of thin steel. a kukri or other large blade designed for chopping harder woods are thicker and heavier (my 15" HI boomerang measures 3/8" thick at the handle)-and they work great. these same blades won't filet a fish very well, but they aren't designed for that.

so, i agree that alot of the small blades should be made thinner or given a thinner grind, but i also think that there is a place for thick knives, mostly in heavy choppers or especially long blades.
 
Kev,
I have been following your threads for a long time. I started reading all of the threads on "survival" knives for the last three years. I tought wilderness survival to scouts for 32 years and it never involved anything more than a scout slip joint knife. So here is my amature opinion. (I have bought every thing from a dozen Moras, to 20 BRKT, 20 Busse's, and some knives that are thick enough to serve as splitting wedges. I almost bought your Fox River when you sold it to change to the Wilderness Fox River).
There is no one right answer just as there is no one knife for all uses. One of my friends uses a Busse steel heart that "thick" to open cars, locked houses, chop down trees, etc on a regular daily basis (He is head of the Skamania Co. Emer. Command Center and an active SAR.) He went thru several K-bars, a Camp Tramp and a Ratweiler before he found one tough enough. I recently found my perfect fire starting knife. It is a BRKT Mini-canadian. I carry a Bravo-1 or Wet Recon or RMD for wood gathering. For me the criteria is 1) it must be very sharp and cut, 2) It can not break, 3) It must be small enough that I will carry it. It helps if I like the knife. I also like guards. I live in the Washington Rain Forests, so I like BRKT 12C27, but also like alot of others. I do not like really thin or thick knives. My 0.17" Fox River and 0.187" RMD are close to perfect for 4-6" knives. 10" knives need to be 0.25" +. Why have a big knife with no weight to chop. Ah. Wait a minute, I love my new BRKT Golok and it is 0.187". I have broken three knives. The whole blade thickness question is a function of the steel and it's geometry also.
As my wife says, I talk too much, but its fun.
I truly enjoy repeat threads because new ideas creep in.
Ron Athay
 
Kev, this is a topic near and dear to my heart, and 1 that might undoubtedly get people talking if nothing else....I really prefer a thin blade...I know it's sacreligious but even alot of bark rivers stuff seems a little thick for my personal preference...I find myself more often than using my knife to cut string whittle something, make food or to clean a fish or a squirrel than most anything else..and when I'm cleaning a trout the crocodile Dundee special isn't cutting it in my hands..Maybe some other cats can make it roll but not this cowboy.A nice slender blade for a belt knife works for me...to quote Obi won Kenobi "it's a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age" SInce fortunately many of us are not surviving but just practicing skills, it all boils down to preference.
 
I have a Dozier Wilderness Knife model which is 0.20" D2 steel with a 5" blade. It is a bit thick for a non-serious general purpose knife, but for a wilderness only-one knife, it seems like it would do must about everything okay short of delicate stuff.
 
I'm gonna go against the curve here and say thay thickness means almost nothing in comparison to geometry and width. A half inch thick blade will cut like a razor if the blade is full flat ground and five inches wide. I have a Becker crewman that I purchaced as a "prybar", it's thick as all getout, thicker than anything I would normally carry, but it slices really well because of the grind and the wide blade. It's a great cutter.

I've seen pics of people shaving and making fuzz sticks with a hatchet.

I like to carry a larger, thicker blade in the woods teamed up with something like a AG Russell woodswalker. Small and thin for delicate tasks and a larger knife for rougher work.
 
My go to is an Eriksson 2000. I have a BRKT North Star and I like it a lot. It's one of the first made, so I had to go through the whole sheath thing with them and am still wanting a better sheath for the knife, which is why the Mora gets called on so much. Eventually, I will be ordering a Bravo-1 with the leather sheath. Thick spined, but man does it cut. I got a slipjoint and a lockblade SAK for the delicate stuff.
 
I tend to agree. Though I don't claim great expertise on knives I tend to favor the thinner blades and wonder about the super thick ones. Glad I'm not the only one wondering about this. I got a knife loaned to my by my brother in law the other day and it has a 1/4 inch thick blade. I can't believe it would be better than my Leuku at most of the camp/bushcrafting things I do. I have a couple of respected name survival knives that have pretty thick edges and it does seem like overkill. They both seem to work pretty well for firemaking but the larger one really does weigh a lot and I've specifically left it at home when trying to cut down pack weight.
 
There are some who blame Webster Marble for the thick outdoor knives we have today.

I look at it this way...
We are guys...
Most of us are American guys...
Bigger is better :D
Therefore...
We like big knives.
Now that we have great big knives we want to carry them and use them.
Big knives have been, thru the years, weapons.
Since we aren't about to go into battle or duel just to use our big knives, what to do?
Chop wood.
Now there's a good reason to carry that big honkin hunting bowie.
:D
Now a niche market is forming.
Chopping is good. Chopping is included in the ABS testing program.
The niche grows, with the help of the 'survivalism' school of thought, into a genre.
The makers & manufacturers grow this genre into a large share of the knife market.
Add a dash of brilliant marketing and a large dollop of internet 'word of mouth' some pseudo science/parlor tricks and here we are.

As far as what constitutes the proper thickness for an outdoor knife, I don't think there is one. I do, however, think that overly thick sharpened prybars aren't necessary and won't be found in my kit.
But...there is a lid for every pot, so to each his own.
Of course YMMV
:D
 
The more you know, the less you need.

Over the years I have appreciated my Mora more and more for the fact that is thin. It is also an added benefit if you neck carry for weight.
 
I max out at 3/16. Sold off all my prybars. Heck, even my designated chopper (Ka-Bar Heavy Bowie) is only 3/16. I tend to go for 1/8 in knives 5" or less in length, with a decent width. Mostly I try to stay at 3/32 in knives less than 3". I'm actually a bit disappointed by the thickness of my new Koster bushcraft, which seems about .17, like my Fox River. But thick, and scandi-grind, don't go well together in my book. So now I mostly carry my Schrade Sharpfinger, and a Fiskars Hatchet, with either my Farmer or Outrider. Now those are some thin blades (with the exception of the hatchet, of course!). Thick is not in for me. That's the only reason I haven't gotten a Bravo-1 yet. Too thick. Otherwise, a great knife.
 
In my experience I was using thick knives that no matter how I sharpened them they couldn't do the finer tasks I found myself using knives for with any degree of success. I could of course baton down logs or cut open my hard plastic pistol case when I forgot my key, both of which were rare/one time occurances. When I found myself mostly using my cutting tools it was cleaning fish, preparing food or trying to make something out of nothing for a camp tool. It made me feel silly trying to butcher a fish with a prybar when my friends knife made short work of his fish at 1/10 the price in 1/10 the time. I'm sure diffrent folks have diffrent uses for knives and steel thickness but I have found myself carrying a OHT 97% of the time, and it's done everything from food prep, cleaning fish and cleaning a decent size buck. I love big knives, but the longer I live i find i like the way they look, but they don't get used much. Just my 2 cents.
 
Part of the trend toward thicker blades is the result of more boutique knife builders entering the market. One easy way to distinguish one's wares from the Moras and machetes is to use thicker stock. After all, thicker is stronger, right? ;)

The fashion is the insistence on making knives "bulletproof". How many times has someone on the forum said something like, "Would you trust your life to a $10 knife?" Who's life is worth a $10? Framed this way, the heat is on to produce thicker, more durable blades. Of course, it's a false premise. My life is of course worth more than the $10, at least to me. However, I put my life's worth at even higher than the fanciest Busse, too. With this realization, that argument is exposed for the absurdity it is, since if one accepts the premise, there's no ceiling on what one should spend.

There is a place for thick blades. If one needs lateral stiffness or high weight with a relatively narrow blade. However, my needs don't coincide with those. Applications for laterally stiff tools are better served by tools other than knives. And when I need a heavy blade, I find I don't also need the blade to be narrow.
 
I am in the middle on this one. I find 1/8 too thin and 1/4 way too thick. I would never buy a knife with 1/4 thick stock. It is too heavy and unnecessarily thick.

Shotgunner11, made a good point. It depends on the grind alot. I recently bought a Spyderco Temperance. It is 3/32nds but it is so finely ground that I would not bring it in the woods on a hike. However, For Kali practice no problem, making lunch no problem. I hate to have a feeling that if I drop my knife it could have a substantial break.


3/16ths is just right! It has a good heft and it is VERY comfortable in my hand.
 
I also think blade geometry has a lot more to do with cutting performance than blade thickness. For example the Fehrman first strike I have is 1/4' think, but due to its grind will slice wafer thin tomatoes. With this being said, I would have to say 3/16" is about my favorite for blade thickness in blades 4" +.
 
Since you asked . . .

I tend to carry a slip-joint, folding saw, and 4" Barkie or, sometimes, F1 or Koster.

Having said that, if I carry a slip-joint, why do I need to care if my knife will perform delcate tasks? Perhaps the larger knife should be capable of doing things the 4" knife cannot do so well - like chopping or clearing brambles, while still being capable of doing more delicate knife tasks better than a hand axe if not as well as the 4" knife.

Maybe the best advice is to start smaller before trying a thick, heavy knife.

(Next we can ask how a coating helps a knife cut. :D)
 
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