Paging Dr. Octagon

[garry3]

You have fine taste in trucks Agent H. I have a 1996 Tacoma I bought new in 1995. I put a used motor in it last year. I over heated it the year before and think it might have warped the aluminum head a little causing premature head gasket failure at 230,000 miles. I have never been sorry for buying a Toyota. I generally drive them until the wheels fall off. They see a lot of low range 4 wheel drive.

Your axe hang looks great. Nice head also.

 

[Agent_H]

I have had some things come up so I am running behind on shop time and have not gotten to reshaping the swell yet. I think I will start a new thread about turning modern handles into fawns feet. Some are pretty good at it and others are just learning to hang an axe so it might help some.

I for one would really like that Garry. At least one shot of your vice would be great too :thumbup:

Understand the time thing too. There is is a cruiser and full-size double bit sitting on my bench half done that keep shaming me for walking by each time...

 

[SC T100]

SCT100 - This followed me home yesterday. Nary a T100 here but this was a close second.

Not a bad choice either! Nice axe too!

 

[garry3]

I for one would really like that Garry. At least one shot of your vice would be great too :thumbup:

Understand the time thing too. There is is a cruiser and full-size double bit sitting on my bench half done that keep shaming me for walking by each time...

Maybe Citysofthesouth will do it. I think he is better at it than me, he does some great work. Hint hint.

 

[garry3]

Finally got to finish the haft. Its ok. I will do it a little different next time.

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I like my handles kind of like the bows I build, slim and trim with nothing on there I don't need.

I have a little filing to do yet and some more oil and then this Red Warrior is ready to go.

 

[Agent_H]

I like the swell/fawn's foot you did there Garry. You focus on the rounded portion then the approach to it or the other way around?

 

[garry3]

I like the swell/fawn's foot you did there Garry. You focus on the rounded portion then the approach to it or the other way around?

I usually just draw a line and cut them off. With keeping the knob I just drew a line and then attacked the excess on the knob end with a farriers rasp. It went pretty fast really.

If you saw off the handle at the angle you want and then thin the handle to suit you when you get to the fawns foot, try to keep all your width and depth(bit side), the fawns foot pretty much makes its self. I can get away with just a little bit of upturn at the end, but to much will be immediately uncomfortable.

The best thing you can do is have a vintage one on hand as you go on your first one. It will give you a map so you don't remove wood that you want to keep. It will also give you a pretty good idea of the angle to cut the handle off at.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Finally got to finish the haft. Its ok. I will do it a little different next time.
I have a little filing to do yet and some more oil and then this Red Warrior is ready to go.

I think you did a great job and it looks like you captured the knob-end to me - and beat me to making one too! To think that guys in a factory used to crank out flawless handles with perfect swells and perfect curves, octagonals, knob-ends, etc. is amazing. The second image in your post makes it look like you really improved the flare into the swell also.

 

[cityofthesouth]

Maybe Citysofthesouth will do it. I think he is better at it than me, he does some great work. Hint hint.

I'll go in the thread with you. I've done them before (maybe not on this forum? I don't remember) so I have pics.

 

[garry3]

I'll go in the thread with you. I've done them before (maybe not on this forum? I don't remember) so I have pics.

Sounds great. I am not always good at articulating the point I want to get across. And there is always different ways to go about things.
I might be doing a little hatchet handle tomorrow.

 

[ICS]

Agent_h and garry3, why do you thin your handles so much? Would seem to me that they would become extremely whippy and prone to breaking.

 

[Agent_H]

I like the way they look and feel. Now a days my full-sized axes are used primarily for splitting wood for a fire pit. They get used to clear windfall, help the neighbors clear windfall, split rounds, etc. Growing up we heated with wood but I haven't for years. I guess several of the older axes I have redone came to me with thinned handles. Sort of liked the way they feel in hand, how they look, and how they...handle

Compared to the uneven horse's legs of handles that I see at retail stores, it feels right/better to me. Don't thin out my splitting maul handles. Haven't broken one yet from use. I'm built like the one that I did in the beginning of the thread. Long and thin seems right to me but I am no competition chopper for sure. That one came out a little thinner than some - the handle came to me from an Army surplus store really pretty uneven in the crook - after evening it up it there I tried to get it to look similar in the belly, back, and shoulders. Looking to try my hand at octagonalizing from a stock handle.

Compared to some others they are "whippy" - I really like it and maybe it's my imagination but I feel less fatigue in my hands and shoulders with the thinner handles - Might all be in my head though lol.

Good question ICS.

 

[300Six]

Agent_h and garry3, why do you thin your handles so much? Would seem to me that they would become extremely whippy and prone to breaking.

When an axe is dedicated entirely for chopping (live trees!), the handle is mostly the agent of control and delivery of the head, and a means to keep strike vibration/shock to a minimum. Splitters tangle with hard and dead wood and need some buffer against overstrikes and prying motions. Offering overly thick handles (as seems to be liability-conscious manufacture these days) is cheap insurance against diminished quality control. Lumber grading has become a lost art! The grain orientation and runout on new-made hafts often leaves much to be desired.
Now if in fact you are training and practicing for chopping competitions then I would think you'd want as much weight forward as you could get, rather than a half pound of 'burden' material in around the middle and at the back (butt). There are lots of parameters you can experiment with!
Picture below is of a current make hickory handle alongside a 75 year old (maybe older) Canadian Walters one. Walters sourced their hickory from the southern US because the company owner insisted on the best. By today's standards it is painfully thin (the grain is 'first class' mind you) and no one managed to break it all those years and it hefts quite nice compared to a modern '2x4' haft.

 

[ICS]

Agent_h and 300six, thank you for the great explanations and once again, I imagine the handle stands up to the job at hand. Here in oz we come up against some of the hardest timbers in the world, they are mostly eucalypt varieties and non deciduous ie. they don't drop their leaves in winter. I am afraid the thinner handles wouldn't stand up very well and as good handles are becoming very expensive, we can't afford to be breaking too many. We don't have any timbers quite like your hickory and all our best handles have to be imported.

 

[ICS]

300six, we're you ever in the business, I take it you are from Canada. Looking at the two handles in the photo, I could certainly do more with the new one in a racing axe, the top one would just not cut it (forgive the pun) and you are right about the weight forward principle however with regard to the handle or control and delivery system as you put it, there reaches a point of no return when it is either thinned too much or too much weight taken off and it is better to have it a bit too stiff rather than whippy. If a handle can't deliver the 5 or 6 pound head exactly where you want it, it is no use at all. Any movement means less control and in a competitive sense one small imperfection can mean the difference.

 

[garry3]

Agent_h and garry3, why do you thin your handles so much? Would seem to me that they would become extremely whippy and prone to breaking.

The firemans axe is a wall hanger. It would be very whippy. The other one is not. Its 31/2lbs on a 28" haft. Pretty much in line with a vintage handle which I prefer. Of coarse we are swing axes with a little different purpose and intent. I have all day and don't plan to break much of a sweat.
The eye is the weak link, that's where I will break a handle. No amount of beefy handle will prevent that and they will all break.

 

[Agent_H]

If a handle can't deliver the 5 or 6 pound head exactly where you want it, it is no use at all. Any movement means less control and in a competitive sense one small imperfection can mean the difference.

I know you were addressing 300six. The only axe I own over 4.5lbs would be a broad axe head recently picked up. You are right that a 5-6lbs piece of awesome wouldn't do well on such thin handles as we've posted up. My only experience with a competition axe is through Google and watching a competition on cable so I have no business commenting on them other than they are definitely a different class of tool. I wouldn't stand up to the guys that run those things either lol.

Also, I wouldn't put tall/thin tires on my truck and expect it handle the same.

The difference in wood being cut is also a factor for sure. There was a lot of big timber taken around here with 3.5lb - 4.5lb axes on thinner handles than are produced today - at least that I come across. It never really occurred to me that handles would need to be imported to Australia. That would change my perspective some from wanting to create something that could possibly reduce my initial investment.

Can't say as I have heard of a racing/competition axe with an octagonalized handle now that I think about it...

ICS - Australia has a rich timber history that I really don't know much about but would like to. You should start us a Competition axe thread with pictures! :thumbup:

 

[300Six]

The firemans axe is a wall hanger. It would be very whippy. The other one is not. Its 31/2lbs on a 28" haft. Pretty much in line with a vintage handle which I prefer. Of coarse we are swing axes with a little different purpose and intent. I have all day and don't plan to break much of a sweat.
The eye is the weak link, that's where I will break a handle. No amount of beefy handle will prevent that and they will all break.

My experience is 95% of the time the cause of breaks are from overstrikes and prying on a stuck blades. Careful choice of end grain orientation and straight grain (minimal runout) reduces the frequency of this considerably and nearly eliminates the sudden shattering of hafts (such as you often see in baseball) upon contact. I can say this with some conviction because I've had the opportunity to inspect hundreds of broken handles over the past 40 years. Get the nicest piece of wood that you can and don't be shy about shaving it down whatever amount still leaves you comfortable.
Perhaps you'll notice that first class single piece canoe paddles have very thin shafts and blades, have a wonderful amount of flex and yet don't easily break. It all revolves around expertly reading the grain before selecting the blank.

 

[garry3]

My experience is 95% of the time the cause of breaks are from overstrikes and prying on a stuck blades. Careful choice of end grain orientation and straight grain (minimal runout) reduces the frequency of this considerably and nearly eliminates the sudden shattering of hafts (such as you often see in baseball) upon contact. I can say this with some conviction because I've had the opportunity to inspect hundreds of broken handles over the past 40 years. Get the nicest piece of wood that you can and don't be shy about shaving it down whatever amount still leaves you comfortable.
Perhaps you'll notice that first class single piece canoe paddles have very thin shafts and blades, have a wonderful amount of flex and yet don't easily break. It all revolves around expertly reading the grain before selecting the blank.

Its the same with hatchet handles, probably all wood hafted striking tools. Even with out over strikes they will eventually break.

In the building trade there was an old saying that holds true "twice as wide twice as strong, twice as thick eight times as strong". So we can remove wood to make things stiffer, but it will just be in one plain.

Some old hatchet heads I have laying around. I will never re-haft these as the milled faces are to worn. I bang on them when I need another wedge to split logs length wise.
The remains of hafts are still in them as they broke. The after break autopsy tells a guy a lot about why. As you mentioned the side to side prying is really bad and will kill a handle the quickest I think.

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No amount of over built would have saved these hafts. To sharp of a shoulder would have led to an earlier break.
I guess if I made two handles out of a pair of sister billets laying side by side in the same stave and made one handle over built and the other nice and thin, then abused them to see which broke first would be a more scientific way to test my hypothesis. But I have better things to do.

A loose head seems to crush wood fibers and will quickly lead to broken hafts. That's why I pay so much attention to moisture around the head. If I can keep moisture out I can keep the head tight. Sometimes the head will start ringing like a bell before I even notice movement.

 

[300Six]

How many wooden handled and metal tubing claw hammers did I break or fold over when I was much much younger! Lots. Even managed to bow an Estwing while having both feet planted against a log wall in trying to remove an old spike. Did quite the tumble across the floor when that spike 'let go'.