Pakistan?

Wow, I am really glad I asked this question. Thanks for the very informative responses, guys. Makes a lot of sense.
 
Back in the 1980's there was this old guy where I worked. Rolland. Rolland carried ne of those Packistan Buck clones in his lunchbox for cutting up fruit. It was a rough finished stainless blade, the wood handles were a bit crude, but it locked u just fine. One day Rolland asked me to sharpen it up for him as it was hard sawing through an orange skin. I put a toothy corse edge on it with ahold gray carborundum stone and Rolland was happy. It sliced through orange peels, apples, and whatever.

Every few months Rolland would have me touch up the blade and we'd go another few months. For Rolland, who was not a knife knut, didn't care about knives, and just wanted to cut up some fruit for his desert after lunch, it was fine. Really. I thin sometimes as knife knits we loose sight of reality and forget the other 95% of the world that does not have a lot of disposable income, but just wants a knife to cut something. It won't matter to them what we think, but if it cuts their food, or a piece of rope, or whatever, then it's a fine enough knife for them.

I imagine in most Packistani homes, they don't really care about having a better knife. If it cuts the lamb for dinner, it's good.

Carl.
 
I reckon thats the way its always been. My Grandad was among other things a Nottinghamshire coalminer and an RAF ground crewman during the battle of Britain.
He wasn't interested in the science of knives or sublte nuances of woodgrain in the handle. If it did its job it was good and modern plastic is better than old fashioned bone or ivory and such.
Which is true up to a point. I think we're lucky to be able to have such options and discuss them in a forum like this.
 
I have a Pakistan Buck 110 knockoff I bought at a garage sale for $5. I polished up some rough edges (something I also had to do on a $120 GEC, by the way), and it's a decent knife. Solid lockup, no blade play, unknown stainless steel that holds an edge. Someone in Pakistan was having a good day when he/she made this one.
 
OK, follow up Q. I agree, if the knife making culture is so rich...what does a really NICE traditional pakistani knife look like???
 
I think your question is a good one but the whole region is a crossroads so traditional knives are probably particular to each tribal group. There would be styles unique to each one is my guess and because of the Silk Road culture the trades cater to all markets and buyers. Maybe there are some Brits on here who could chime in, traditional knives can't have changed much since that area was their colonial territory.
 
Carl made an excellent point, most people give very little thought to knives. They are satisfied as long as a knife cuts, even if it does so poorly. Most people don't spend their free time on knife forums either. Those that spend time around here tend to be enthusiasts, although some are more enthusiastic than others.

As for me, I like knives. I also respect fine craftsmanship so I am willing to spend a pretty penny on them. Give me stag and premium steel, I have no interest in pot metal blades made as cheaply as possible.
 
Dan
I'm just replying because I noticed that ther were 999 repots and I wanted you to have at least 1,000.
There are some wild designs from that part of the world and they've certainly been making knifes longer than most.
Cal
 
HoosierQ said:
The region that encompasses India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan today was sort of a hub of metalworking. The Romans traded extensively with India and Indian steel was the best there was a the time of Christ and thereabouts. Later, the cusaders encounterd "Damascus" steel. They called it that because that's where they encountered it but it came from India (kind of like the Kentucky rifle coming almost exclusively from Pennsylvania for example). So India and Pakistand (and for that matter China) should be able to produce very good steel and knives. It is just that in this day and age, they often do not...at least not that we see here and any that are good are going to cost too much for anybody to buy and still say Pakistan on the blade. In the USA, if it says Pakistan on the blade, it pretty much has to say 5.99 on the pricetag or no sale. I am sure there are some very competent smiths is Pakistan.
Click to expand...

+1

On a similar note, the town of Darra is known for its many gunmakers. Not that we westerners get to handle any of those products. From what videos I've seen, they do some surprisingly good work given the crude equipment. I would guess the heat treat is mediocre, but then so was the heat on a lot of European antique firearms.
 
Most of the knives I saw on the street during the 80s were Pakistani imports. Now more of them are made in China. At first glance they appear to be decent quality knives, but the heat treat is poor and the grinds are non existent to palsied. Seriously, the steel tends to be either so soft it bends or so hard it snaps, wee tab tang is stuck to handle with low grade epoxy. Never saw one that was sharp enough to cut paper. All of them have the tip snap off in short order. Worst quality knives available . . . but they are really cheap!
 
Beginning in 2003 I began researching knives to find acceptable replacements for the pieces Gerber was no longer making.

My wife and I had decided to spend more time doing outdoorsy type stuff, and my shopping trip to "pick up a couple of new Gerbers" came to an abrupt halt when I discovered that . . . much had changed since my last Gerber purchase in the early eighties.

So I started on a sort of quest to find a) suitable replacements, and b) what there was out there that would work well for me.

In the course of this exploration, I ordered a whole bunch of different knives in different styles and sizes. In the beginning, quite a few of them were from Pakistan. The reason was simple: they were pretty cheap, and I could buy twenty different sizes and styles to try out without going broke. I learned very early on that large knives don't really suit me. I found this when I bought a number of large Bowie-style knives. Almost all made in Pakistan. I tried some others in smaller sizes, several of which were also from Pakistan.

Over a period of months I found patterns that suited me well, though none of those came from the Pakistan/India regions. I also discovered that -- generally speaking -- the materials, designs, craftsmanship, and fit & finish on the great majority of my Pakistani knives was well below what I was used to. Steel that was shiny, but wouldn't hold an edge. Handles that didn't fit the tang. Badly uneven grinds and irregular bevels. Rivets and bolsters and guards badly fitted, with rough edges and protruding lips. It was a parade of slipshod workmanship.

The crowning moment was when I purchased a box of razor knives (two blades: one is a clip point, the other is a straight razor) that were advertised as "Solingen" steel. Photo of the ricasso showed "Solingen" and the carefully chosen photo angles seemed to show a reasonable quality knife. When the box arrived, it was immediately clear that the advertising was intentionally misleading. Fit-n-finish stank. Grinds were uneven and inconsistent from one knife to the next. And way out toward the tip of the blade, where you would never bother to look for it . . . "Pakistan" in a lovely, subdued laser etch. The knives were crap. I still have them. I can't think of anyone I dislike enough to inflict them on.

Amid all this sub-par stuff were a couple of gems. I got a little sodbuster with a leather sheath and green wood handles. Absolutely no blade markings. Surprisingly stiff spring, and -- hallelujah! -- someone had heat treated the blade. It actually holds an edge. Another surprise was an "Old Smoky" skinner with the cheap-n-cheesy colorful wood handles and advertised as having been "made from a file." When I got it, along with "Pakistan" the blade stamp proclaimed "stainless," right there beside all the cross-hatching that simulated the metal of a file stock. And it came in a faux leather sheath that truly stank of some kind of petrochemical derivation. I hated it instantly. They had lied to me: nobody makes files out of stainless steel. It was fake in just about every conceivable way.

I threw it in the kitchen junk drawer to be used for opening packages. A year later it still didn't need sharpening. The sheath had ceased to exude that pungent stench. It stayed in the drawer. They had lied to me. Another year later it still didn't need sharpening. I sharpened it anyway. Interesting. It had a kind of convex bevel. I carefully did what I could to improve the edge and put it back in the drawer. I've had that knife for nearly eight years now. It still lives in the kitchen junk drawer. It still opens packages with ease. I sharpen it once a year, but it never really needs it. I don't hate it any more. Hey, they lied to me, and so what? The fake leather sheath turns out to be durable. The blade turns out to be durable. It holds an edge. I honestly believe it would skin a deer.

Also, one of the "Bowie" knives actually turned out to have decent steel and a pretty fair edge. Too big for my purposes, but not an altogether horrible knife.

So, out of [a bunch] I got, what, three keepers?


I no longer buy Pakistani knives. I can get sub-standard steel from China that has a better fit-and-finish. Random Chinese knives currently exhibit quality more reliably than random Pakistani knives.

Aside from the outright dishonesty I experienced with a couple of my purchases, I found that, on the whole, the quality simply wasn't there. Always? No, I did get some good pieces. A couple of them I actually use. Most of them sit in boxes, where they won't remind me of my sojourn into completely classless cutlery in those early days of profound ignorance.

I won't speculate on why it is that there is so much inconsistency in the quality of blades originating in Pakistan. The guys in the previous posts have offered some very plausible explanations.

I just know that while they ought to be able to make awesome knives, I've simply not seen enough evidence of consistent quality to inspire sufficient confidence in me to resume buying them.

My current Asian rating system runs something like this:
  • Pakistan/India
 yuck, way too inconsistent
  • China
 meh, some good, some bad, getting better
  • Taiwan
 generally good, some outstanding
  • Japan
 generally very good, many outstanding


It's possible that won't match everyone's experience, however it's my current policy foundation for Asian quality.

 
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Pakistan IMO is up and coming, its where China was quality wise about 5 - 8 years ago...they are getting good, but not yet up to par with their quality application (I have tried quite a few Pakistani slipjoints). I give it another 5 and we will see nicer stuff coming from them, especially concerning Damascus steel.

I have gotten some very bad japanese and chinese knives...but they also produce some outstanding stuff!
 
LKJW said:
OK, follow up Q. I agree, if the knife making culture is so rich...what does a really NICE traditional pakistani knife look like???
Click to expand...

I am afraid that I cannot answer. I am more familiar with the history of that region in a general sense (and its cutlery) than specifics. I could cite more specifics about the knives of Scandinavia and the British Isles...but no where in Asia is my knowledge of their cutlery anything but academic. I hope to enter the "Khukuri club" here soon. It seems (to me) that Nepal is one place in SW Asia that has retained their knife tradition more or less unaltered.

As far as a traditional "Pakistani" knife goes...let's be clear. Pakistan is a very new country (founded 1947). Prior to that it was part of British India and prior to that it was always part of India. In fact, India is named after the Indus river where Indian culture was apparently born in about 3000BC and which, ironically, today, doesn't flow in India at all I don't think. Indian cultue was born in what is today Pakistan and then moved east and south...at least from an archeaological perspective. So there technically wouldn't be any "traditional" Pakistani knives due to the short duration of that nation's existance relative to India as a whole. Now there may be traditional Pashtun or Urdu knives for sure but what they'd be I know not.
 
It wasn't the Indus river that named India, it was the Indus valley civilization which did extend into modern day india and part if Afghanistan... Pakistan's traditional knives would be much like Indian and afghan and to an extent Nepalese (the original Khukri were found over a good portion of asia minor). The division of the original India would not effect what knives were common place in the home and on belts.

The kirpan is a common knife among Sikh but was a very regional knife for original India. :)
 
Robert B. Good info. This is the guy to ask specific questions of. Mohenjo Darro and Harrappa etc. I know the Khukuri was rather synonymous with the Raj and is very common in India today.
 
Well, there must have been a time that the knives of that region were to be feared, as the last lines in Kipplings Poe, The Young British Soldier make it painfully clear.

When your wounded and left on Afganistan's plains,
And the women come to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
 
Pakistan is known in the world for salvaging steel off old ships. Old ships either get towed or sailed directly onto the beach where tens of thousands of shipbreakers manually "break up" these ships using sledge hammers and hacksaws. This is the source of the steel. You never know what kind of steel will go into the blade because the illiterate knifemaker himself certainly doesn't know.

Next, low cost of labor in Pakistan. Pakistani laborers make make $5+ per day for backbreaking work. "Skilled" knifemakers make a bit more (like $7-12/day) because they own tools. However, they are generally paid by "per-piece" pricing for the knives they manufacturer. This means that the more knives they produce, the more money they can make. Note that heat-treat or quality are nowhere in this equation because they would add time to the per-item cost.

This is why knives are both plentiful as well as cheap (cost and quality). These knives make it to the USA because here is the biggest market of buyers willing to spend money on things they don't need.

Are there high quality Pakistani products? -Yes. But you need to know who and where to buy them.
 
About Pakistani Knives.
Let me explore you with some information. Different people have different opinions. As I am Pakistani, I lived and grow in a city called as city of cutlery city of knives.
The main factors of cheap prices are cheap labor and cheap methods.
If we talk about quality, definately American made knives and german made knives are much better.
Because Pakistanis has not much option in material selection and technology. They use simple machinery not advance. But Knife market is growing with the days. The basic needs are cheap here in Pakistan. They took profit margin very less.
This is all about.
 
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