"Panther Run Spike Tomahawk" For the life of me.......

H

HARDBALL

Joined
May 6, 2001
Messages
924
Hi all,

For the life of me, try as I might, I can NOT find a single picture/example of a (circa 1700's) SPIKE TOMAHAWK (with known History/documentation be it French, Dutch, German, English etc.) as used/Traded in New England area (especially Maine to Canada) by either Native Indians/Settlers/Trader's etc. that does NOT have it's handle attached using a wedge. I am searching hard trying to see if I can find an example of a Historical 1700's Spike Tomahawk where the handle is inserted down in through the top of the Eye hole and the Head held on by "friction". I MAY be onto something (and continue to research) the (so called) PANTHER RUN IRON TOMAHAWK :

http://mawooshenresearch.com/sebago_anthro/panther/panthertomahawk.html


The DENISON French & Indian War Spike Tomahawk (circa 1750's) appears/maybe to have it's Head mounted to handle without the use of a wedge but, I'm unsure and trying to either confirm if this is the case.

http://project1763.org/wp-content/themes/project1763/images/revolutionary_peace/02/2-6.jpg

http://project1763.org/exhibits/revolutionary-peace

Your thoughts/suggestions/information/comments/photographs etc. greatly appreciated.


Regards,

HARDBALL
 
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Slip fit handles are self tightening even with changes in humidity and don't require the use of European tools (bone or obsidian is great for scraping, carving and shaving but that's about it) to saw a kerf and to taper form a wedge. Slip fit handles are easier to shape (and can be adjusted as necessary even when in service) and will not accidentally fall or fly off. Losing a prized piece of metal must have been at the forefront of every native's thoughts when working over or near water, high elevations, rocky locations or experiencing life-threatening situations. Any curved or straight selected branch has greatest strength and durability and already has inherent taper to it.
As a consequence I can't see your ever uncovering early tomahawks that require some form of front-on wedging.
 
Hi 300,

Thank you for responding to my thread. Six, your observations/thoughts are right on target. This is in part the reason I am having a difficult time trying understanding why every
(circa 1600-1700's) "Spike Tomahawk" (that I've research) did NOT utilized the more simple "slip handle" method but rather used Hawk Heads mounted by the use of a wedge (requiring tools).
Every example of a Native "Trade" (France, Dutch, English, etc.) Spike Tomahawk (of aforementioned time period in New England) I have researched looks almost "delicate" in the sense, that is to say,
the very thin haft (at the Hawk Head) looks as if it would SNAP OFF if too great a blow where delivered. Of course I realize these Spike Hawks were (mostly) meant to be used as Weapons and were by design meant to be rather small in size, lightweight (some Heads weighing half a pound) and built for speed! Still.....especially after seeing an example/photograph of a 11th.-13th. Century Hungarian small Tomahawk (in this case a hammer poll on one end instead of Spike provided by AdiThiel) the concept of "slip tightening" handles is pretty ancient. I continue my research. Thanks Six.

Regards,
HARDBALL
 
Keep digging! I have no proof one way or another except for half century of practical experience with wedged eye choppers. Far as I know the industrious and far ranging Basques of northern Spain were the originators of New World trade axes and those folks to this day rely on slip fit handles for production axes and hatchets. Perhaps forum member Ugaldie (who lives in that neck of the woods) will respond.
 
Thanks again Six. I will indeed keep digging! I must say, I have many question(s) regarding EARLY "self tightening" Spike Tomahawk's that were "Traded" with the Native Indian People by either Explorers/Fur Traders/Missionaries/Settlers etc. As you correctly mentioned the far ranging Basques of Northern Spain :

https://books.google.com/books?id=t...ues of Northern Spain exploring Maine&f=false

This is cool : https://umaine.edu/canam/publications/st-croix/champlain-and-the-settlement-of-acadia-1604-1607/

HARDBALL
 
I can only imagine the revolution that took place amongst hunter/gatherers when metal cooking pans, storage pots, plates, spear tips, fishing and gaff hooks, knives and axes suddenly became available.
20 years ago a Yellowknife NWT buddy of mine showed me lake's edge tree stubs up in the arctic Barrenlands (nothing disintegrates up there for hundreds of years) that had been chopped with stone tools. Would have taken a Dene native better part of a day to 'gnaw-through' a dozen 3-4 inch mature spruce trunks and chisel off the branches in order to make the pole frame for a caribou hide shelter. With a steel hatchet the fella would have got all this done in an hour. And he wouldn't have had to patiently hide in a shrub bush awaiting the chance to bash an emerging-from-the-water caribou over the head with a club or a big rock.
 
Yes indeed Six, one can only imagine the MAJOR difference (after the items you mentioned were introduced) among the Native population. I can see/hear it now :

"Elder" Native Indian Chief talking to his Grandson (who's complaining about working).......Elder Chief : "waaaay back in my day, when I was your age, we didn't have any "fancy schmancy" Metal Tomahawks,
we walked for miles and we use to chop wood and prep food using a sharp STONE or a BONE......and we LIKED it!"

Regards,
HARDBALL
 
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HARDBALL said:
Every example of a Native "Trade" (France, Dutch, English, etc.) Spike Tomahawk (of aforementioned time period in New England) I have researched looks almost "delicate" in the sense, that is to say,
the very thin haft (at the Hawk Head) looks as if it would SNAP OFF if too great a blow where delivered.
Click to expand...

300Six said:
I can only imagine the revolution that took place amongst hunter/gatherers when metal cooking pans, storage pots, plates, spear tips, fishing and gaff hooks, knives and axes suddenly became available.
20 years ago a Yellowknife NWT buddy of mine showed me lake's edge tree stubs up in the arctic Barrenlands (nothing disintegrates up there for hundreds of years) that had been chopped with stone tools. Would have taken a Dene native better part of a day to 'gnaw-through' a dozen 3-4 inch mature spruce trunks and chisel off the branches in order to make the pole frame for a caribou hide shelter. With a steel hatchet the fella would have got all this done in an hour. And he wouldn't have had to patiently hide in a shrub bush awaiting the chance to bash an emerging-from-the-water caribou over the head with a club or a big rock.
Click to expand...

You have to recall that they were used to working with those stone tools. Hard heavy blows were unheard of - the tool would just break. Any iron tool would be amazing by comparison. And these were not just weapons. They were used for everything, as knives, hammers, hatchets and as weapons. If you were fortunate enough to own one you had an amazing tool kit at your fingers.
 
I've been wondering this myself. I've tried to find GOOD photos of mid 18th century tomahawks and when I do and can tell it looks like they're wedge mounted. Some modern makers claim to have modeled theirs from originals or photos from some book, but I've never seen the original photos. I own a couple hawks from Beaver Bill and a head I need to mount from Thiel in Hungary. I bought one of his spike hawks as it looks closest to an original I saw. It is wedge mounted as well.
Please post any good photos of spike hawks if you have any. Or sources that do.
 
Hi Guys,

Square, no doubt about it, compared to Stone and Bone tools, new (European) traded items made of Iron must of been cause for major celebration among the Native People. Racegunner, EXACTLY! Trying to find photos of even circa 1700's (let alone 1600's) Trade Spike Tomahawks (not wedge mounted) appears to be near impossible. Ha! I also have been looking at Thiel Spike Tomahawks and I recently was in communication with Adam. Adam sent me a picture of what (appears) to be a "self tightening/friction mounted" Tomahawk Head (circa 11th. to 13th. Century) from Hungry but it has a "Hammer" type poll instead of Spike. Not too far of a stretch to think someone may have said (back in the day)......let's make the other end a SPIKE! I too like Thiel's Spike Tomahawk however, I wish I could find a KNOWN example of the "friction" design SPIKE TOMAHAWK (if) used by the Native Indian People of New England (especially in Maine to Canada) circa 1600's to 1700's.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=e63360d4a8b7ad5503159702d44b06b9&oe=588F5DEF

Regards,
HARDBALL
 
Square_peg said:
You have to recall that they were used to working with those stone tools. Hard heavy blows were unheard of - the tool would just break. Any iron tool would be amazing by comparison. And these were not just weapons. They were used for everything, as knives, hammers, hatchets and as weapons. If you were fortunate enough to own one you had an amazing tool kit at your fingers.
Click to expand...

Amen! For all the rightful ruckus about perceived one-way-street 'hard done by', natives benefitted substantially from European contact. The nomadic Plains folk were quick to embrace Spaniard horses and never looked back in using them to 'up their game' for pursuing Buffalo and harassing tribal competitors.
 
Start by looking at boarding axes. If wedging a head to haft was common practice with larger axes then it makes sense that the maker would design the smaller trade hawks the same way. Regardless of the fact a friction fit is better and can be crafted easier in the field without tools, it was probably just something that wasn't thought of by the manufacturer of trade axes in Europe. And the native Americans didn't have a say in how it was done. I'm not sure who created the first friction fit here, I'd like to know when and where they first started showing up in this continent. The fact that the Hungarian and most European hand axes were wedge fit tells me that's just the way it was done and always taught that way. I haven't looked at Viking axes, but I suspect they were all wedge mounted too.
 
racegunner said:
Start by looking at boarding axes. If wedging a head to haft was common practice with larger axes then it makes sense that the maker would design the smaller trade hawks the same way. Regardless of the fact a friction fit is better and can be crafted easier in the field without tools, it was probably just something that wasn't thought of by the manufacturer of trade axes in Europe. And the native Americans didn't have a say in how it was done. I'm not sure who created the first friction fit here, I'd like to know when and where they first started showing up in this continent. The fact that the Hungarian and most European hand axes were wedge fit tells me that's just the way it was done and always taught that way. I haven't looked at Viking axes, but I suspect they were all wedge mounted too.
Click to expand...

Slip-fit eyes are most commonly seen on axes from Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy. Wedge fit is most commonly seen everywhere else.
 
I don't have much to add to this but I can tell you what I have seen around here in local museums ect. We have nothing that early but the tomahawks I have seen from the 1800's were not working tools. They were status symbols and or ceremonial pipes.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Slip-fit eyes are most commonly seen on axes from Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy. Wedge fit is most commonly seen everywhere else.
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Nowadays,maybe.As in the last several hundred years.

Long ago,practically ALL tool eyes were compression-fit.From the stone axes onward into bronze.Most,if not all,La Tene,Celtic,Migration Era axes were compression fit.....The wedge came later.(Possibly,initially as a repair to the compression handle,judging by some artefacts).....

And yes,the above-named countries mostly produced the trade tomahawks,that's Why the t.'s were compression-handled.

Garry is quite correct by saying that tomahawks were not tools but the status symbols,and only have aquired any practical use with time...

Dene,and all other indigenous people,didn't use chopping as technology,one must be careful in (essentially patronising)conjectures such as above....Skins were not stretched using "frames",they were pegged out on the ground,and et c.,those people were Not dumb,or helpless,or poor in tooling...:)....The tooling AND the method of getting stuff done progressed together....
 
Heck--as far as axes go, most didn't even have eyes up until the early Iron Age. Plenty of bronze eyed axes exist, but they appear to be a significant minority compared to tanged or socketed ones. And those cultures that switched to wedged handles for their axes still had a lot of tools that used slip-fit handles. Hoes, adzes, and picks, especially.
 
jake pogg said:

Dene,and all other indigenous people,didn't use chopping as technology,one must be careful in (essentially patronising)conjectures such as above....Skins were not stretched using "frames",they were pegged out on the ground,and et c.,those people were Not dumb,or helpless,or poor in tooling...:)....The tooling AND the method of getting stuff done progressed together....
Click to expand...

That's a tough call! So you figure they whittled away on stuff with sharp pieces of bone or stone! Getting an entire tree down and limbed is gonna take a long time if you're using the equivalent of a dull pocket knife. I inspected those very old tree stumps and the harvester would have had to have an ironman wrist and hands to cross grain cut at such a steep angle. Would have been easier for him to have a trained beaver on hand.
 
FortyTwoBlades,yep,that's about the long and the short of it.

300Six...Well,see,it's that "they"(one heck of a generalization right there,of course...)didn't structure their needs/projects around the tools that weren't there....There was no need to fall trees,nor for making cross-cuts of any dimentions to speak of...They,Dene in particular(i live among their cousins to the west,most of my adult life....),were a successfull culture materially,setting their goals relative their capacities,not really hurting for tools that they weren't even aware of....A nomadic way of life is,needless to say,significantly different in it's requirements...
 
Hardball,
The way some of those boarding axes are assembled is how Thiel showed he mounted his with the two metal strips attached to the haft and extending through the eye.
I've heard Roger's Rangers used tomahawks modeled after the boarding ax but I think just in the similar shape and proportion. The artifacts are much smaller as you know.
I have a feeling they just used a wedge and left off the metal pieces. I've also read in some book (can't remember which) that the tomahawks the rangers had was also used
as a tool to dig and whatever else but I doubt it was ever intended to be anything other than a weapon based on their tactics and size of head. The standard British hand ax with hammer pole seemed like a better tool but probably not a fast weapon as a small spike hawk. I really do wonder what style tomahawk or hatchet the majority of Rogers Rangers carried (spike, pole, simple blade only).
 
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