Paper Grinding Wheel or Belt Sander

John T Wylie Jr said:
ask how many knifemake'rs sharpen with their belt grinders ( and I will too once I situate mine to a better position ) . Use whatever YOU can use effectively to get the edge you want , a belt takes more attention than a stone , but it also takes a lot less time...

I find the cardboard wheels give me the speed of the belt in a more controllable motion , I would use the 8" wheel on my Bader but it is serrated and I don't care for the final edge when using it )

and NOZ : The edge will last just as long as any edge you put on with a stone or anything else. The means by which you get it sharp has no bearing on how long the edge will last.
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No I found that using D8XX - extra extra coarse 120 Mesh 120 micron DMT take as I sad same time or less then belt sander. It take me 15-20 minutes to get rid of serration (see the parallel thread) and to form new edge it take 2-3 minutes, about 5-10 on Swamp Rat HRLM with their super thick initial edge and pretty hard steel. So with this stone (and I directly mentioned this) it takes same or less time.

Now of course it is matter how you get it sharp - if edge burns out and lose hardness during belt sander sharpening it will not last long even initially it is same sharp.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
richard j said:
when i sharpen a knife that i have made, i sometimes have to use my belt sander to work up a burr because of how hard the edge is. i watch what i'm doing, take my time and use water to keep my blade cool. after working up a burr, i remove it with the cardboard wheel. a belt sander does have a place in sharpening like bill and whitleystu said, but only if you know what you are doing.
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We sharpen the same way Richard. 3" wide, 180 grit fine belt, normally just two careful passes per side to raise the burr, then the paper wheel and green compound to hone and polish the edge. Again, just two passes per side. With a reasonably sharp blade, we just use the paper wheel. I grind my Tichbourne folder about once every 6 months, and hone it every two to three weeks. 440C to Rockwell 56 to 58. The knife is used hard and used many times every day. The blade never gets hot as the belt on the sharpening sander is pretty slow.

Vassili. I can sharpen and hone in less than 1 minute. :)
 
nozh2002 said:
Now of course it is matter how you get it sharp - if edge burns out and lose hardness during belt sander sharpening it will not last long even initially it is same sharp.

Thanks, Vassili.
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apparently you are missing the numerous times where it has been stated in MANY threads , that the risk of ruining it is non-existant if you pay attention when using wheels or belts. Just as with stones , which do not guarranttee EVERYONE a great edge , unless used properly.

Keep it cool and pay attention and you will not wreck the HT.
There is no ONE way to sharpen , but I do not have the time to spend 15 minutes putting an edge on a knife with stones , when I have more to do after that one.
Belts or wheels work well for me , and I have yet to wreck HT or get the tip hot enuff to where I couldnt hold it between my fingers.

However if you dont think you can do it with a belt or are worried about it , then dont , but to say to others using a belt will RUIN the steel , is an insult to makers that sharpen that way. You do realize that plenty of makers grind the ENTIRE blade after Heat treat dont you ? :D
 
Racerx2oo3 said:
Has anyone compared the results to those acheived with a 1" belt sander/grinder using sharpening belts and a leather belt?
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Two bits of input from me: The paper/cardboard wheels are superb for getting hair-popping sharp CHISELS, especially wood-turning tools. Some of the top turners and carvers recommend sharpening on a belt (fresh belts!) and finishing up on a paper wheel, often shaped to the specific gouge or bevel. I've seen them in action and will attest 100% to the efficiency of this practice. The guys I've seen doing it take about 15 seconds to touch up an edge and a whole minute to re-sharpen!

The other thing I've done is put an MDF circle on a grinder, cement a strip of leather and use it as a power strop. With care, it puts an amazing edge on quickly without overheating the blade.

my $.02

J-
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
apparently you are missing the numerous times where it has been stated in MANY threads , that the risk of ruining it is non-existant if you pay attention when using wheels or belts. Just as with stones , which do not guarranttee EVERYONE a great edge , unless used properly.

Keep it cool and pay attention and you will not wreck the HT.
There is no ONE way to sharpen , but I do not have the time to spend 15 minutes putting an edge on a knife with stones , when I have more to do after that one.
Belts or wheels work well for me , and I have yet to wreck HT or get the tip hot enuff to where I couldnt hold it between my fingers.

However if you dont think you can do it with a belt or are worried about it , then dont , but to say to others using a belt will RUIN the steel , is an insult to makers that sharpen that way. You do realize that plenty of makers grind the ENTIRE blade after Heat treat dont you ? :D
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No I am not missing anything, and keep you suggestion to youself, I am perfectly cool - are you?

And if you read my posts I several times reffer to this "IF". If it work for you and your customers - so be it this way. But you can not simple recommend it to visitor of this subforum (which is not knifemakers subforum BTW) because you are talking about mass production by skilled professionals. So IF you sharpening so many knives that you can not spend 15 minutes sharpening each - use belt sander.

In many TV shows you may see - do not try this at home warning, and this is what need to be sad here - if you are skilled knifemaker who has no time to sharpen knife on benchstone, you may use belt sander.

You may say that this is insult - well will you give some random person from the street to sharpen your knife this way? How long will you theach someone to allow him to do this for you?

This "proper way" statement is like -"Anybody can discharge the bomb if they do this proper way. And if you suggesting random person not to do this - it is insult to all demolition experts!"

...I hope you get my point.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
What rpm's are you all using on your belt sanders and wheels? I'm asking, because I've read Verhoeven's paper, and he was able to put some *screaming* razor edges on his blades for his research quite accurately and repeatedly with jigs and belts and wheels. The best edge he found was a leather wheel on the Tormek loaded with CrO. But the Tormek spins at 90 rpm, so heat was not a concern.

I have a HF 1x30 which (I think turns at 3400 or 1750). I've been practicing with it on knives as I have been wanting to learn it. I took Jeff Clark's advice and bought junkers at garage sales.

Yes, I've burnt tips and edges, but I'm getting to the point where I'm not anymore. I have a hard time keeping a nice straight bevel, it really is an art, or acquired skill. I have also found that the really good quality belts don't heat up my blades nearly as much as the cheap ones.

I was able to remove some major damage on my HI Khukuri in about 5 passes per side (that's really good for me). I also lucked out and put a really nice bevel on it.

I understand if some of you would rather stick to your stones, I don't have any problem with that, but I'd like to learn both. I feel that I'm pretty good with my stones, and now I'd like to try the belt and wheel (especially the wheels).
 
I tought my 14 year old son how to sharpen using the wheel setup in 8 minutes , now he can touch up all his knives when needed. Hard to explain how the grease on the wheels does indeed keep the heat build up to a minimum but it sure does work. It would take me longer to teach him on the bader as he is still spooked to use it.

the wheel setup, I use it on a 1800 rpm bench grinder ( but it is variable up to 3800 ) , using the bBader3 to sharpen ( which is variable ) I usually have it on 2 , but I do not know what the rpm or belt speed is . I use a 320 grit belt , then 600 , then a worn 600 loaded with

A friend who turned me onto the wheel setup has a 10" leather wheel setup also and it is like a power strop from hell. A mere touchup on that ( or the paper wheel with no grip just compound ) is all that is needed to " touch up " an edge.

Before I switched to the wheels , I used a 1 x 42 Delta to sharpen on , as I could lay it on its back on the bench , I just couldnt find a way to position it that i found comfortable to use .

That 1 x 30 from HF is a screamer ! ( puts a nice finish on Ti with a scotch brite belt by the way ).

For me I find the wheels a bit more controllable than the belt . Try both if you can , then compare. Once I get a 10" smooth wheel on my Bader I will do a comparison between the two.

Not need to get all bent Noz , its just discussion .
And no more would I give some random person my knife to sharpen with a belt than I would with a stone. Sharpening is an art with a stone , a lost art , one I wish I could totally master , but I don't have the time ( or perhaps as my wife says " patience ".)

Years ago I took a knife to a knife shop here in town to be sharpened. It was handed back to me looking worse than it would have if I had done it , I paid my $5 , left , and learned to sharpen myself after that.
 
I have read posts from Thom Brogan that his D8XX diamond stone beat his belt sander in terms of time. I think he came to the conclusion that he was using lower quality belts made for cutting wood, and has since corrected the issue with belts designed for metal.

I personally have sharpened for a couple of years using a HF 1x30 sander. Based on my experience, you can indeed overheat blades at the tip and on very thin edges. However, after practicing on about 5 or 10 knives, this doesnt happen anymore. I have not tried the paper wheels, but now swear by a 320 grit belt, followed by a leather belt loaded with white buffing compound.

My major issue now is not taking off more metal than needed. I am also somewhat conflicted with the issue of burning the edges on knives in this way. How can you significantly affect the heat treatment (temper) on a knife by heating it briefly (a few seconds maybe a minute) to a temperature that color changes start (about 350 F for plain carbon steels) when standard tempering times are 0.5 to 1 hour or more, sometimes for multiple cycles, as recommended by some makers? Also, dont forget, the bulk of the blade attached to the edge acts as a heat sink and can draw heat away from the edge, thus aiding in keeping the edge cool.
 
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