Paper Wheel power polishing?

Noctis3880

Noctis3880

Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
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I'm still waiting on my paper wheels(probably comes in on Monday), but I can't help but speculate. And yes, I did do a search but nobody seems to have brought it up.

I was thinking about using 0.5 Micron Diamond Paste on the slotted polishing wheel rather than the included White Rouge. Though I was considering that 1/10 micron diamond spray first(some cheap spray) just to see if it's really abrasive on any level(meaning it's actual diamond).

I figure with the wheels spinning really fast, even a sub micron abrasive would be able to put a mirror edge on the blade pretty quickly.

I like my super steels(S30V, S110V, ZDP-189, and perhaps M390 or Elmax in the future), but I'm not sure I'm committed enough to spend hours stropping it by hand on my leather strops.

Thing is, I'm not sure if it'll just be an exercise in futility. I typically sharpen my knives with my EdgePro Apex(moderately old model, so no 1/2 inch stones). It sharpens reasonably well, but gets ever longer past the 320 grit. I might spend more than 30 minutes getting from 320 grit to the finish at 1000 grit. After I'm satisfied with the mirror edge on the knife, I move onto my 1 micron and 0.5 micron diamond strops, spending maybe 10 minutes on each.

I suppose the real question is how fine the finish of the white rouge is compared to the diamond paste, and just how thorough my stropping is.

Most of the time, I don't really notice much of an improvement on sharpness after the strops compared to the finish of the 1000 grit stone.

Due to a lack of arm or leg hair, I test my edge on paper. Typically if I manage to do the sharpening properly, it'll slice through the paper cleanly(without a "slicing" motion) after the 1000 grit stone and it'll be hard to note any further increase in sharpness unless the edge pops off that thin "fuzz" on my leg(the pathetic excuse for leg hairs). That has only happened twice, and only with my ZDP-189.

Most of the times, it'll cut the paper clean near the belly, then it catches near the tip or closer to the tang. I figure I probably didn't do a thorough job between grits(and damned if I can't feel that burr past 320 grit).


So yeah, Slotted Paper Wheel + Diamond Paste = Good?:thumbup::thumbdn:
 
never tried it, but the white paste will quickly get your blades polished. I use it as my last step.
 
The white compound included with the Wheels will put a mirror finish on the blade. I haven't tried what you're asking, but the only thing I would consider is, with the compound, you can quickly add it to the wheel between knives or every few knives, making it quick and easy. You may want to consider that if you use a compound that you have to stop the wheel to add, and or wait for it to dry before using.

cbw
 
i have never tried any diamond spray on my slotted wheel or heard from anyone yet that has but the white compound puts a nice mirror finish on the edge. i have tried orange, black, red and a light green compound with the red making a little bit of a difference but not worth the mess it makes since it gets all over the place.

i would say for the money the spray would cost it wouldnt be worth it for the little difference it might make. the white compound gets a knife scary sharp as it is. the kind of edge put on a knife can make a difference in how sharp it is too. i put a v edge on a boker rhino for a member last week and a convex edge on a few others. i talked to him a few days ago and now he wants me to put a convex edge on the rhino.
 
Hmm, having used an EdgePro to sharpen my knives, I don't believe it's physically possible to get a convex edge with it, though I'm not entirely sure what that edge is supposed to be like. Perhaps I could give it a shot once I get my wheels.

In any case, I suppose the real question is, after finishing with the slotted wheel, if you strop the knife on 0.5 micron diamond paste leather, would it get any sharper?
 
Yes it will become sharper, white compound is not nearly as fine as the 1 or .5 micron diamond compound. Using the diamond compound on the wheel would be a waste because it does not apply thick enough and is simply not designed for that application. After the use of 1 micron diamond compound your edge should be a perfect mirror.

White compound is more in the range of 4+ microns.

If you have a EP why did you get the wheels?
 
knifenut1013 said:
Yes it will become sharper, white compound is not nearly as fine as the 1 or .5 micron diamond compound. Using the diamond compound on the wheel would be a waste because it does not apply thick enough and is simply not designed for that application. After the use of 1 micron diamond compound your edge should be a perfect mirror.

White compound is more in the range of 4+ microns.

If you have a EP why did you get the wheels?
Click to expand...
It takes a good while to sharpen the edge after moving to 600 and 1000 grit stones.

Plus I have a "thing" for super steels like S110V, ZDP-189, S30V, so sharpening gets even longer, and stropping as well.

I also figure I might be getting sloppy at some points because after stropping on 0.5 micron diamond paste leather, the edge still doesn't quite look like a perfect mirror.
 
For super steels your best bet is diamond hones and compounds. For ZDP I find best results on water stones.

If your not a perfect mirror by 1 micron then you either didn't progress through enough grits prior or didn't use each grit long enough aka proper refinement of scratch pattern.

Unless you plan on doing you morning shave with your knife 0.5 is just for fun.
 
thanks guys ,as a person whom only started with the diamond compounds in feb. or march i find your discussion very informative. dennis
 
knifenut1013 said:
Yes it will become sharper, white compound is not nearly as fine as the 1 or .5 micron diamond compound. Using the diamond compound on the wheel would be a waste because it does not apply thick enough and is simply not designed for that application. After the use of 1 micron diamond compound your edge should be a perfect mirror.

White compound is more in the range of 4+ microns.

If you have a EP why did you get the wheels?
Click to expand...

Yep....

Just for fun, I tried 1 micron Hand American diamond spray on a new paper wheel a couple of months ago. The results were quite bad. As you said, it is simply not designed for it. I move from the paper wheel with white compound to the 1 micron diamond spray, .5 green and then to plain leather with excellent results.
 
you cant put a convex edge on with the paper wheels, you can however remove the burr and polish the edge.
 
After trying my wheels today, I've come upon some interesting results.

With the grit wheel, it's almost TOO aggressive. I didn't notice that my edge was being eaten up and pushed onto the other side until I had a look at it, about 6 seconds after it touched the wheel. I'm really glad I didn't try it on one of my folders first.

The slotted wheel put an edge so sharp on my ZDP-189 that the thin fuzz for hair on my legs were popping off, something that took much time and effort with the EdgePro + an hour or two of stropping.

It sharpened my recurve on my Shallot S110V pretty well. While it isn't near as sharp as my ZDP-189, I figure the S110V can't hold a fine edge because it's only about HRC 58 compared to the HRC 64(I think) on the ZDP-189.

I think the EdgePro still holds value because it sharpens the knife while removing as little material as possible, all the while leaving you with a "pretty" edge.

The slotted wheel pretty much lets me skip the 220-1000 grit stones on the EdgePro, thus saving lots of time.

As expected, I probably won't touch the grit wheel unless I'm doing drastic metal removal(At least until I get better at it). But the slotted wheel makes what would have been an hour of knife sharpening and literally cuts it down to about 2 minutes.

Best purchase I ever made:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.
 
not too far off-topic here, but how much of a learning curve is there when using the paper wheels versus hand sharpening? being utilized with a power tool, I can see it making a mess of things very quickly if something goes awry. I've been meaning to come up with an excuse to get a bench grinder, so if the wheels are fairly easy to use, this could be what pushes me over the edge
 
All depends on how good your teacher is. No matter the method sharpening is a life long learning experience. The method you choose and stick with is the one you become best with and learn the fastest.

Power tools make for quick results but one mistake on power tools is like 100 of the same mistake on a stone.
 
I'd say the learning curve is easier than hand sharpening on stone, but then, I could just be a slow learner.

I find the easiest way is to rest the knife on my thumb and turn the edge towards the wheel, then I draw the knife in a slicing motion and pull it away when the tip is halfway across the wheel.

Whether mistakes are minor or costly would seem to depend on how hard you press the blade against the wheel. You could probably go with a slow and steady approach by only letting the blade lightly touch the wheel.

I find it simpler because you don't have to repeat the some slicing strokes across the stone with perfect form each time(if you want to maintain a steady edge angle), a hundred times.

The grit wheel would take practice.

The slotted wheel however is "so easy, a caveman could do it". Though I would still keep coated knives away from it to be on the safe side:p.
 
Noctis3880 said:
After trying my wheels today, I've come upon some interesting results.

With the grit wheel, it's almost TOO aggressive. I didn't notice that my edge was being eaten up and pushed onto the other side until I had a look at it, about 6 seconds after it touched the wheel. I'm really glad I didn't try it on one of my folders first.

The slotted wheel put an edge so sharp on my ZDP-189 that the thin fuzz for hair on my legs were popping off, something that took much time and effort with the EdgePro + an hour or two of stropping.

It sharpened my recurve on my Shallot S110V pretty well. While it isn't near as sharp as my ZDP-189, I figure the S110V can't hold a fine edge because it's only about HRC 58 compared to the HRC 64(I think) on the ZDP-189.

I think the EdgePro still holds value because it sharpens the knife while removing as little material as possible, all the while leaving you with a "pretty" edge.

The slotted wheel pretty much lets me skip the 220-1000 grit stones on the EdgePro, thus saving lots of time.

As expected, I probably won't touch the grit wheel unless I'm doing drastic metal removal(At least until I get better at it). But the slotted wheel makes what would have been an hour of knife sharpening and literally cuts it down to about 2 minutes.

Best purchase I ever made:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.
Click to expand...

I generally get sharper quicker with the steels are hardened less. In fact I think I get my VG10 Native the scariest sharp. I haven't done any real "what is sharper" tests but I feel like I have a certain threshold of sharpness that I strive to get to with each of my knives that I usually test by filleting pieces of paper which even still depends on the blade shape and type and all that.

But I do the same "cheating" as you. I use the Edge Pro to set an edge or re-profile and I finish on my paper wheel. I then touch up my knives on the the wheel after that and keep them sharp. Also, it is easier to use an Edge Pro on the slightly recurved blades like a Tyrade and the ZT family. I still want some 1/2 stones to keep the edges of my 1 inch stones from getting used up too fast on recurves.

There are times where I will do it the "hard" way and progressively raise the grit just because I want something to do AND I'd like to think I still have it. I don't have the stones to get a perfect mirror edge but I have a long lasting razor sharp edge when I am finished. :D

Noctis3880 said:
I'd say the learning curve is easier than hand sharpening on stone, but then, I could just be a slow learner.

I find the easiest way is to rest the knife on my thumb and turn the edge towards the wheel, then I draw the knife in a slicing motion and pull it away when the tip is halfway across the wheel.

Whether mistakes are minor or costly would seem to depend on how hard you press the blade against the wheel. You could probably go with a slow and steady approach by only letting the blade lightly touch the wheel.

I find it simpler because you don't have to repeat the some slicing strokes across the stone with perfect form each time(if you want to maintain a steady edge angle), a hundred times.

The grit wheel would take practice.

The slotted wheel however is "so easy, a caveman could do it". Though I would still keep coated knives away from it to be on the safe side:p.
Click to expand...

It seems like the one thing knifenut1013 and richard j agree on is that its best to learn how to sharpen first on a stone before you do anything, even the paper wheels. If you don't understand how and why stuff is getting sharp it may cost you and even be dangerous. I am not saying people won't have success sharpening by starting out on the paper wheels but it seems like sharpening on stones is something a knife enthusiast should just know, especially come the Zombie Apocalypse when it will be a skill you'll desperately need. :cool: But seriously, you should have that lightbulb moment so you can understand what is really going on and get even better at what you are doing.

As far as pressure applied I try not to place much pressure at all on the blade while I run it across the wheel because I am worried about the heat.

Bead blasted and stone washed blades are in the same danger I am afraid. :( I've got a bead blasted blade that stares me in the face every day because I wasn't paying attention. I guess I will have to polish it now. :D
 
Speaking of polishing, would it be possible to polish the entire blade to a mirror finish with the slotted wheel?

My 943 blade is shiny, but it's not quite perfect yet.
 
noctis, you need to use light pressure on the grit wheel. when i work up a burr on the grit wheel, i sometimes have a burr so small its hard to feel or see. the reason i have my wheels rotating to me and hold the blade around the 1:00 position is so i can watch the burr form. you should have been practicing with a cheap knife to start with and not a good one in the first place.

you asked if its possible to polish up the entire blade with the slotted wheel. its not meant to do that. go look at the knife at this link. its the one i made for kalama.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582180

i put a mirror finish on it in no time. the entire blade was polished with 1500 grit wetordry being the last grit i used before going on to a super hard 1" wide cotton buffing wheel. if i remember right, when i was done i used a worn 400 grit belt to work up a small burr on the half convex edge before going to the slotted wheel.

one thing about wetordry paper or any abrasive paper for that matter (including the grit wheel) is that the grit wears down to a finer grit with use. you can actually start with a 400 grit and after some use end up with a finer grit.

when i took machine trades in high school, our teacher told us to rub any abrasive paper or cloth across the square edge of a piece of steel to break down the grit some before using it so it wont be so agressive. diamonds wont break down so you cant do this and thats why you have to buy a lot of different grits.

noumenon, when the same teacher taught us how to grind tool bits for a lathe he would grind the bit and quench it in water. sometimes there would be a little steam coming off the bit. one guy asked about the heat messing up the temper and he said you can get an edge a light brown color and not hurt the temper of the toolbit or any cutting tool for that matter. i have sharpened 3/8" lathe tool bits and had them sizzle water and still cut the same and last just as long as one kept cool.

if you bear down on the grit wheel and run it across real slow, you're going to heat up the blade. if i have a knife with a super dull edge i quench the blade to keep it cool. if i have several knives to do i'll also switch off after a few passes so they will stay cool. one time when i was messing around with a knife i made, i would run the edge over the grit wheel numerous times and lightly touch the edge to my lip or tongue to check for heat. the edge was cool each time i checked.

i dont know if you guys read my paper wheel tips page but here is the link to it. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608864
 
richard j said:
noctis, you need to use light pressure on the grit wheel. when i work up a burr on the grit wheel, i sometimes have a burr so small its hard to feel or see. the reason i have my wheels rotating to me and hold the blade around the 1:00 position is so i can watch the burr form. you should have been practicing with a cheap knife to start with and not a good one in the first place.

you asked if its possible to polish up the entire blade with the slotted wheel. its not meant to do that. go look at the knife at this link. its the one i made for kalama.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582180

i put a mirror finish on it in no time. the entire blade was polished with 1500 grit wetordry being the last grit i used before going on to a super hard 1" wide cotton buffing wheel. if i remember right, when i was done i used a worn 400 grit belt to work up a small burr on the half convex edge before going to the slotted wheel.

one thing about wetordry paper or any abrasive paper for that matter (including the grit wheel) is that the grit wears down to a finer grit with use. you can actually start with a 400 grit and after some use end up with a finer grit.

when i took machine trades in high school, our teacher told us to rub any abrasive paper or cloth across the square edge of a piece of steel to break down the grit some before using it so it wont be so agressive. diamonds wont break down so you cant do this and thats why you have to buy a lot of different grits.

noumenon, when the same teacher taught us how to grind tool bits for a lathe he would grind the bit and quench it in water. sometimes there would be a little steam coming off the bit. one guy asked about the heat messing up the temper and he said you can get an edge a light brown color and not hurt the temper of the toolbit or any cutting tool for that matter. i have sharpened 3/8" lathe tool bits and had them sizzle water and still cut the same and last just as long as one kept cool.

if you bear down on the grit wheel and run it across real slow, you're going to heat up the blade. if i have a knife with a super dull edge i quench the blade to keep it cool. if i have several knives to do i'll also switch off after a few passes so they will stay cool. one time when i was messing around with a knife i made, i would run the edge over the grit wheel numerous times and lightly touch the edge to my lip or tongue to check for heat. the edge was cool each time i checked.

i dont know if you guys read my paper wheel tips page but here is the link to it. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=608864
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if you would consider an $8 Mora knife a "good" knife, but that was what I started with.

I've sharpened all the knives in my house and everyone else's knife from work as well, all of which took less than 15 minutes total, and every last one ended up with a razor sharp edge that makes clean cuts through free hanging paper.

I'm going to get my hands on a couple of high hardness knives(HRC 60-62), along with 0.25 micron diamond spray and see if I can't take the edge further.
 
Noctis, did you put some wax on your grit wheel? It will slow the cutting action down a lot and help the blade stay cooler. First time I used my grit wheel, I didn't know that and wore down the edge quickly. :)
 
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