Paper wheels making better refined edge than EdgePro Apex?

Pete84

Pete84

Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
168
Hello all! As with many of you, I have been in pursuit of the ultimate refined edge for my blades. I've tried all sorts of sharpening mediums ranging from mousepad/sandpaper to a Sharpmaker to EdgePro to Paper Wheels. The most recent addition to my array of sharpening systems is the EdgePro Apex.

What I'm having difficulty understanding is how my paper wheels are able to polish up a more refined edge than the EdgePro kit. I've used the tapes all the way up through 6000 grit, then 0.3micron honing film, then moving to a leather strop with 0.05micron spray (mounted to a blank). And, while the EdgePro grinds in a more even bevel along the blade, the paper wheels with rouge easily put a better (and sharper) finish on my blades.

I've tried different types of blades, different steels (440c all the way up to some S30V and just about everything in between). The results haven't varied at all. Example...

Spyderco Military in S30V (have two): Each ground in at 15* per side with the Edge Pro, reprofiled from the factory edge. One finished on the EdgePro, including the strop with aforementioned diamond spray, and the other finished with paper wheels and garden-variety metal polish (available at Lowe's). Both can whittle hair... the EdgePro knife takes a bit more effort. The blade finished on the paper wheels can easily whittle hair and also pass the hanging hair test (EdgePro finished blade cannot).

This baffles me. I've checked the bevels -- completely identical on both knives. I've used a sharpie marker to make sure the EdgePro is getting all the way down the bevel and polishing the edge -- it is. I've spent hours and hours painstakingly working on my blades, but the paper wheels still take the cake.

Beginning to think I've wasted my money. Maybe the EdgePro will be relegated to reprofiling duties only....

If I'm doing something wrong, someone please clue me in! Any feedback would be appreciated! :)
 
Sounds like you are not using the EP properly, it also seems like you are trying to push the limits of fine abrasives but maybe not spending enough time with each. 0.050 is so extremely fine you will have no scratches in the surface and the reflection should be so deep it nearly looks black. If the edge was truly refined to that level you would make most razor sharpeners jealous.
 
How, specifically, does it seem that I'm misusing the EP? And what do you think would be an appropriate way to determine when it's time to progress to the next abrasive level? I agree that these are likely the things holding me up, but I don't have enough experience with the machine to tell where I'm mis-stepping. The full edge is definitely not refined to the 0.050 level -- of that I'm sure.

I can see very light scratch marks on the blade surface still, although each stone wipes away sharpie markings completely and (when done) it easily passes the fingernail test, while biting in slightly. For final stropping, I've been raising the edge guide up about 2-4 degrees, endeavoring to create a microscopic microbevel. Thoughts?

Interestingly enough, I've been using the 0.050 on my Dovo straight blade after my other compounds... terrific shave, let me tell you. :)
 
Basically your shooting for the stars with a minor in science. It takes practice to understand these things so telling you when to switch stones or what steps your performing incorrectly is only something you can determine. Just removing the sharpie is not enough though and as the steel gets harder and more wear resistant each step will take longer.

Work slowly and inspect the edge often, use a magnifying glass as it will help show in detail the errors in the grinding.
 
If your paper wheels are 8 inches in diameter, and spin at 3500rpm it equivalent to stropping on a 1 foot strop 122 times a second. It is a really fast way to refine a blade. A few seconds contact with the wheel is equal to several 10s of minutes with the EP. The EP however offers a much greater degree of refinement if you don't set up a bunch of wheels to swap out with different grits and polishing rouges, a belt sander is a lot easier to swap out grits on. The EP gives you a ton of edge refinement options over paper wheels it just takes more time to get there.
 
The blade finished on the paper wheels can easily whittle hair and also pass the hanging hair test (EdgePro finished blade cannot).

Hanging hair test does NOT rely on grit, I can easily do that with a blade that's sharpened to 220 grit after 10 passes on whatever the heck grit chromium oxide (Green 'crayon' at hardware store) is.

What I will recommend for you is a cheap microscope, jewelers loupe or however you'd like to achieve at least 10x magnification.

The sharpie test is good IF you are only looking for angles.

You need to literally look at the bevel you have created, for instance, if you start at 220 grit and continue to 320 grit you can easily ascertain when you have gotten rid of at least 90+% of the scratches.

For a nearly perfect mirror edge, you will end up looking at a surface that needs magnification to determine how deeply the bevel is scratched.

Perfect edges are an obsession, after you get your technique, then you will start looking for the perfect steel that can take a perfect mirror polish, by this point the slightest of errors can cause you to take extraordinary amounts of time repairing the slightest damage.
 
Given that the Manix 2 in CTS-XHP that I got back from Ankerson(done on the Edge Pro Apex up to the 6k grit tape) can easily cut free-hanging hair and pop the hairs off my legs with little effort, I sincerely doubt there's anything wrong with the Edge Pro.

One possibility is not grinding enough to raise a burr with the coarse stones. The other is that your stones are different thickness and you didn't check carefully enough with the finer stones to make sure you're hitting the very edge(hard to check accurately with a Sharpie).
 
Noctis3880 said:
One possibility is not grinding enough to raise a burr with the coarse stones.
Click to expand...

I'm actually thinking I may be raising too much of a burr, if there is such a thing. The scratches from the more coarse stones seem to remain on the bevel, even as the edge is refining. Based on feel and magnification, the edge itself is quite fine, but the deep scratches remain in the bevel.

The other is that your stones are different thickness
Click to expand...

The kit is brand new... literally a couple days old with minimal use. Did a quick check... stones are level, except a slight variation on the 120 stone.

...you didn't check carefully enough with the finer stones to make sure you're hitting the very edge
Click to expand...

I can feel the burr develop on each side before I switch stones, and it feels like I'm chasing the burr from side to side (all the way along). This is the biggest thing that throws me off... If I'm working up a proper burr and not varying my angle, why can't I get the deep scratches out and achieve the mirror polish/sharpness I've gotten with the wheels?
 
After messing with my setup, slowing down, and checking more carefully, I've gotten my Spyderco Stretch almost to where I want it. The edge sharpness is terrific, just haven't gotten that perfect mirror yet. Will probably give it another run from about the 600 or 1000 stone on up past the tapes and see how that pans out.
 
Last edited:
First, skip the Sharpie and learn to use a stop collar. It's quicker, easier and more accurate.

Then prepare to spend a lot of time with each stone, especially 320 and up. I have a beef with Edge Pro stones. They are crazy hard and slow cutting, from the 120 all the way to the 1200. They need to wear slowly too since each stone only measures 1/8" thick.

What ends up happening most of the time is two things. First, only the tops of the previous scratch pattern get removed after a little work with the each stone. This shinier surface of the edge bevel gives the appearance that the user is ready to move on to the next stone when, in fact, more work is needed. The second big problem is that the added time it takes for slow cutting stones to work allows for more of a chance for other problems. There is more of a chance that the blade edge will flex, slightly convexing it and preventing full contact with the next stone. Also, any imperfections in the stone surface will be magnified. The sharpie trick is deceptive here because you can remove the marker off of the entire edge bevel without necessarily cutting the entire edge bevel equally with the stone.

Check your final edge bevels and see if any of this is true for you. The tell tale sign for the first issue is a shiny edge bevel with visible scratches left on the blade. The sign for the second issue is that the center of the edge bevel is polished while the very edge or back of the edge bevel is dullish or frosty. There are a number of other potential problems, but these are the most common ones I've seen. Are your stones flattened properly?

I never really had the greatest success sharpening modern stainless steels until I began to try different varieties of stones and learned how they all cut differently. For example, my first experience using silicon carbide stones up to 1k left a dull look but better edge than I had previously. Then the 1k EP stone left a near perfect mirror in just a couple swipes. Seeing something like that will cause you to reevaluate what you are using and what you're doing in your sharpening process. I learned that the previous stones I was using just wasn't cutting the steel as well as it should or I wasn't using the stones long enough... sometimes both.
 
The tell tale sign for the first issue is a shiny edge bevel with visible scratches left on the blade.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm experiencing. Oddly enough, the edge itself winds up being quite well refined and will shave facial hair. The deep scratches in the bevel, however, do not dissipate as I progress down through the grits. I checked and the stones seem to be flat. They are, after all, only a few days old with relatively minimal use.

I agree with you that they are slow cutting. My other waterstones cut much faster. I'm thinking I might have been better off getting the Chosera stones for the system, rather than the EP stones.

I'll look into the stop collar and see how that goes. :) Thanks for the feedback.
 
I'll check that out. You know I love those paper wheels... I'm just a sharpening junkie at heart. I'll try damn near anything to split some hairs. ;)
 
LOL, nice. Somehow I don't feel like going from 0.5 micron to 1200 grit ceramic would help the edge refinement. ;)
 
From what I understand the ceramic rod/hone will knock off any burr that has formed. Might not necessarily reduce the refinement of the edge.
 
Allcaps321 said:
From what I understand the ceramic rod/hone will knock off any burr that has formed. Might not necessarily reduce the refinement of the edge.
Click to expand...
It also works great for sharpening chisel ground blades like my Emerson CQC 7W :thumbup:.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top