Patang ( Tibetan sword )

Rusty

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Per Sonam:

"My father, old-fashioned guy that he was, used too always drive around with his Patang and Khukuri... "

OK, I'll bite: so what is a retired* Sherpa Gurkha, ( and I understand it is the Nepali tribe which is Buddhist, and I understand, perhaps properly, that Buddhism is of Tibetan
origin ) doing carrying a Tibetan sword, and how did he get it and what does it look like and why, why, why??? I did check the HI web page but didn't see one.

* Yeah, the old coots are washed-up has-beens
that forgot everything they ever learned about the use of force, are meek and gentle and properly deferential. Sure they are. And when I say I carry a light saber behind the seat of my truck in case of 'Injun' trouble I'm referring to a Star Wars light saber, and only figuratively at that. Nah, that couldn't be an 1850's or 60's light cavalry saber lovingly sharpened. Uh huh.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01 August 1999).]
 
Only Sonam can answer this for sure but I'm betting the Patang was a family hand me down that may have came all the way from Kham.

Uncle Bill
 
:
Hi Guys.
It is late or early depending on your perspective so I am gonna cheat and answer the rest of the posts later today if I get a chance.
smile.gif


Rusty if I remember right there is a pic of a Tibeten Sword on the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum.
I think that's where I saw it anyway. The addy is in another thread,I think the one Steve asked about the African blades?
I will post the addy on this thread later if it is needed.
If any of the rest of the guys are interested in any of the different countries edged weapons that is a good pace to check them out.

Lee Jones is still working on the web site and has many of the worlds knives and swords listed there with pics. He sent me his snail mail address and one of these days soon I am going to take some pics of my Moro Sword,Keris and the Morrocco knives I have as well as an African(?) Sword with sheath and send them to him. Lee said he would post them and the guys there will hel me figure out what I have.

He has posted some nice Kuhkuri's on the old Knifeforums pages. They are worth going to see.
Uncle finally posted the right addy for there and if anyone wants it I have it and will be glad to share.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.
 
Yvsa, for a change I did some searching on the web before shooting my mouth off. Found a reference to, and picture of, a Pata under Sikh weapons. That one was a strictly thrusting thing with basket hilt extending back several inches to cover the forearm. Imagine the paper cup at 7-11 for a 64 ounce fountain drink with a WWI SMLE bayonet blade sticking thru the cup's bottom.

Also looked up Kham. Assumed since he ( Sonam's father ) married a Sherpa girl, he also was Sherpa. Will search more after get dressed and descend on the post office. What's interesting is the number of Magar's, described as Indo-Aryan in Kham.

Arthur Koestler's book THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE describes a tribe calling themselves Magyars arriving from nowhere around the area around what was Armenia, intermarrying into a Jewish group of siver/goldsmiths, converting, mixing with the Khabar ( Kyber? ) and Khazaks ( Cossacks? ), speaking a language known know as finno-ugric in origin, ( evolved into Finnish and Hungarian ) that has no known relation to any other language. They later moved to the Hungarian steppes. The Rom, Romani, or Gypsies seem to have come out of Northwest India and moved into europe too. Anyway, the Magyars were horsemen and cavalry. Magyars ( muh-jars ) and Magars. One of those things to speculate on for lack of anything better to do.

Sonam, if you can enlighten us on what a patang looks like?
 
I think I have seen a patang or two but I'm afraid I'll make a fool of myself so I will defer to Sonam. I recall reading in the good book a passage that went something like this:

Even a fool who remains silent is considered wise.

Uncle Bill
 
The version I heard that in was:

"It is better to be silent and be suspected of being a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Besides, it probably earns me good karma to to stupid things in front of others so that they may learn and profit from my mistakes.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02 August 1999).]
 
OK, here it goes - On my dad's side: paternal grand-dad was from Kham, eastern Tibet, grand-mom was Sikkimese Bhutia. Mom is Sikkimese-Bhutia. Sikkim is a tiny state sandwiched between Nepal and Bhutan (east and west) and Tibet on the north. The original inhabitants of Sikkim are Lepcha people. Several hundred years ago (14th century, I think) several Tibetan families from eastern Tibet migrated there and established a dynasty. They're the Sikkimese Bhutia people. The correct term is Denzongpa. Bhutia is a generic term referring to people of Tibetan descent from the Sikkim-Darjeeling region. There are slight differences in language, dress, etc. but the overall culture is Tibetan. Sikkim became a part of India in the mid-1970s.

The Tibetan sword is generally called a Patang or Padang or Padam. I've also come upon the term Ke-tri or Re-tri. It's a straight, relatively broad, single-handed sword that looks pretty "medieval". Check out the pictures in Lee Jones' site: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/index.html

The one dad had was relatively new - granddad's sword went to one of my uncles. As for dad carrying one around, well, he was mighty proud of his Khampa hertitage and didn't mind letting people know of it. In our community, the Khampas are generally more-close knit than others, and everyone is aware of their warrior background - our folks were the first to fight the communists in 1950 and were still fighting them with a bit of CIA help until the mid-70s. Today most Khampa/Tibetans who want some action join the Indian Army's Special Frontier Force (SFF) which recruits from Tibetan refugees settled in India. Check out the recent book by Knaus "Orphans of the Cold War" which details US involvement in the Tibetan resistance movement.

Dad joined the Gurkhas - he says he was taken with the Gurkha-hat when he was a kid!

- Sonam Atuk

[This message has been edited by gtkguy (edited 02 August 1999).]
 
Thanks, nephew.

As you know but forumites don't -- Kami Sherpa, HI owner, married a Denzongpa woman from Sikkim.

Uncle Bill
 
Finally occurred to me to ask a simple question. Who, what, when, where, why, and how do people protect themselves over in Nepal? I know they have an army, but what about civil ( as opposed to martial ) law, what about courts? Who enforces it?

Guns are apparently illegal unless issued by the government, or are they? Open or concealed carry of knives is allowed? When Kami Sherpa and Sonam's father retired and came home, they couldn't keep a military rifle could they? Even an old SMLE bolt gun?
Shotguns? Handguns? Maybe if you start by explaining one thing, it'll help us understand the next.

Hope this doesn't rile your ulcer too much, Uncle Bill.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02 August 1999).]
 
Rusty, when I lived in Nepal the king ran everything. They had not yet had their first free election or the revolution which led to the fledgling democracy they now have. And, things were different than they are today so what I can tell you would be history. I'm not sure what the laws are today regarding weapons.

I do know that Kami has a government issued permit to own a gun--or several. I am not sure if he has one or not. When I lived there anybody could carry a khukuri on their person or a thee around their neck with impunity.

Let's wait until Kami gets here and we can ask him the latest regarding this matter. He is usually pretty well up on things like this.

Uncle Bill
 
Rusty,

Here's what I know, nothing "official", just based on what I've seen. More about India here than Nepal since I've spent more time there.

As you noted, firearms aren't easily available, so for the most part, edged and impact weapons are the tools of choice. Your average rampaging mob bent on destroying the neighboring community's house-of-worship, community gathering, etc. is usually armed with a variety of lathis (cane sticks/staffs), pry-bars, tulwars (swords), knives & cleavers (kitchen/meat-shop variety), hockey sticks (field-hockey, not ice-hockey!), spears, tridents, assorted rocks, molotov cocktails; and if it's a rural mob, then you'll see farm implements galore - hoe, shovels, spades, etc. It's quite a sight to see these mobs go about their business - like something out of a painting of the French Revolution, peasants storming the Bastille!

Conversely, riot-control police are armed with lathis (usually 4-5ft approx), cane/bamboo shields, helmets, padded jackets - that's about it. Second line has tear-gas, firearms (Lee-Enfield SMLE - Mark III & IV mostly). Usually some tear gas, a lathi-charge or two is enough to break up most mobs. If not, there's firing above their heads, then at the crowd, if that still doesn't do the trick then it's time to make that all-too-often call to the nearest military post. Martial-law is declared in that part of town, the army rumbles into town, civil authority hands over, flag-march is conducted, which is normally enough to drive home the message. If that's stil not enough, well ... it's time for some serious shooting then ...

The common home-defense weapon is your local variety of edged weapon - khukuri, tulwar, choora, dao, etc. as well as lathis and hockey-sticks. As for concealed carry of knives, I don't know the exact rules, but we always made it a point to hide our folders in the vicinity of police, especially the big-city cops - they usually confiscated it on one pretext or the other, and you had to bribe them on top of that to make sure they didn't cart you off to jail too!

Of course, in the rural areas and the woods, no one looks twice at someone carrying the local variety blade.

As for firearms among the common citizen, there's not a lot. Licenses are heavily regulated and actively discouraged. Parts of the country have a lot more firearms than others. Punjab is a prime example - the large-scale extremist movement there since the early 80s saw a proliferation of firearms. By the late 80s, with the local population tiring of the movement, the government started actively arming the citizens themselves - training wasn't a problem as practically all families have at least a few members in the military or police. This ensured that in the event of govt. forces not being on the scene, the citizens themselves could carry the fight against the extremists/terrorists - and they did so with a vigor. By the early 90s, the extremist movement had practically died down. With the Punjab Police "upgrading" to FN FALs and AKs, their old Lee-Enfields (both SMLE .303 and Ishapore 7.62/.308)were the most common rifles given to these citizens, as well as WWII era stens.

In central India, too, firearms are a common sight. This region saw widespread dacoit/bandit activities during the 60s and 70s. Common firearm there is the 12-gauge shotgun, followed by the Lee-Enfield. Quite a few shotguns are locally-made - some, I understand are of pretty decent quality too. I've also seen quite a few ancient muzzle-loaders being casually carried by folks out in the woods there. In fact, even in the Himalayas, it's not uncommon to come upon an old fellow carting an even older muzzle-loader, though they make a bit of a sensation when they come into town to sell their game!

Then there are the illegal home-made "pipe-gun"/disposable variety, notorious for their untrustworthiness, but available with a bit of questioning among the "right" quarters. Thus, the bad-guys, be they your neighborhood robber, mafia hit-man, revolutionary cadre, etc. aren't lacking in firearms if they need one - these may not be pretty, but they are available. The common folks are the ones who usually end up at a disadvantage in this regard.

Ex-servicemen didn't get any break in this regard too, unless in special cases like in Punjab during the troubles, you were as restricted in owning firearms as other citizens.

I'm pretty sure this is the same case in Nepal.

- Sonam

[This message has been edited by gtkguy (edited 04 August 1999).]

[This message has been edited by gtkguy (edited 04 August 1999).]
 
I do remember that when Communist mobs were on the rampage in Nepal most carried a khukuri, waving it in the air above their heads and shouting, "We don't want the Yankee dollar. We don't want the Indian Rupia. Nepal for Nepalis!" But I don't remember ever seeing a gun.

As an American I was not popular with such mobs so I did my best to avoid them.

And thanks for graphic and honest portrayal, nephew.

Uncle Bill
 
Thanks Sonam. It's hard for each of us to realize the way we learned and were taught is not the only way of living. This morning I almost posted a name for my new Salyan that would have been offensive to the Japanese who occassionally drop by to read this forum and rightly so. For that matter, the events of August 6th and 9th more than half a century ago should be repugnant to all. I'm not judging whether those events were justified. I suspect they may have been, but it is not my place to judge anyone but myself, and that with charity.

Closer to home, I've promised myself I'd send a villager to a friend in NYC who longed for the good old days when the snick of a switchblade meant something. I assume (?) that big knives are legal there as long as they don't leave home with you. Sonam, Uncle Bill, any info come to mind?

 
Sonam lives in NYC and has a few pretty big khukuris. He ought to be able to clue us in on how much or how little he is breaking local statutes.

Uncle Bill
 
Well, I've received all kinds of knives in the mail, ranging from 3" folders to my recent 20" HI Sirupati. The sellers didn't have any problems with mailing their products to NYC - CS, Knife Center of Internet, etc. I did try and mail order regular nunchakus from a MA place some time ago and was told it's illegal to be sold in NY State, so had to have my pal who lives across the river in NJ get in for me. So, if there were a similar problem with knives, I'm sure the sellers would've informed me about it.

My khukuris and knives stay in my apartment at present. Now, as for carying them around openly in the city, I haven't tried that and I doubt folks will take kindly to that idea. As it is, even when I take out my teeny 3" folder to do chores around the ofice (open boxes, cut packaging strings, etc.) , I have co-workers who visibly step away from me, while others look at me with disbelief and mutter stuff on the lines of knives being "too dangerous to have on you" ... "didn't expect this from you"... etc.

- Sonam
 
Thanks for the low down, nephew. Take the 20 inch sirupati to the office one day and open a few boxes. Be sure to have a confederate taking video clips of coworkers reactions.

Uncle Bill
 
HAH! Yes, uncle, that'd be one great video to see! Actually several of my co-workers saw the Hanuman Khukuri when they walked into my office as I was admiring it the day it arrived in the mail, and they all thought it was pretty neat too, even though most were a bit squeamish while handling it. The fact that it was so exotic-loking probably helped, along with my telling them that it was a hand-crafted in Nepal, Hanuman is the monkey-God, etc. I didn't show them my 20" Sirupati when it arrived the next week - didn't want to create another sensation!

Now, if it'd been a regular straight-bladed knife (esp. with serrations - bad, bad, killer knife!) that I'd been playing with in my office, they'd probably think I'm a loon or something.

Incidentally, the army-navy and sporting/outdoor goods stores in the city all sell most kinds of knives openly, though they do ask for ID.

- Sonam
 
First, the disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, etc. That out of the way, I do live in NYC & had looked up the law a while back.

From what I remember reading regarding large knives, they are legal to possess at home, while engaged in an activity in which they would have a lawful use, and while enroute between the two. I'm paraphrasing the "lawful use activity" bit, but I remember the example being hunting, fishing, camping, etc. I suppose this could be expanded to include shows, however...

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Cheers,

--+Brian+--

 
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