Patrol Rifles

[mwerner]

Early last year, I put up a thread about our department getting patrol rifles. At the time, they were thinking about some "bullpup" design that I thought would be a bit over-the-top for most officers.
They did finally decide on a standard M16 (M4) variant, the same one the FBI issues. Looks a lot like this:

but has the simpler optical sight.

We took the "classroom" segment of training last night, tearing the things down, going through the clearing drills, discussing shooting positions, ammunition capability, and so forth.
Old hat to a few of the guys who had actually carried variants of these weapons in the military, but we have several officers with no long-arm experience at all.
I shot a couple of magazines-full through the standard Colt civilian model about 30 years ago....
First time I'd ever looked at the "guts" of these weapons.

Just my impression....A well-refined but rather complex design... Still, should fill the bill. We'll have two magazines in the patrol cars with each weapon, one with a "frangible" bullet (we are in a "campus" environment) and one with a more conventional ball projectile.
We'll be shooting within the next couple of weeks. Interestingly, the big delay was not anything to do with the weapons; it was getting enough ammo for training!

 

[Horned Toad]

Just my impression....A well-refined but rather complex design... Still, should fill the bill.

Being that the design just passed the 50 year old mark somehow I think it will work for your application. If anything the design is very simple. There are no gas pistons, rods or locking rollers. Just a tube some gas goes down and knocks the bolt carrier back.

 

[mete]

"frangible bullet" ?? If you are talking about those advertised as "frangible", they are for target shooting only and are not satisfactory for normal LEO use !! Perhaps the least penetrating 223 is the Federal 40 gr which penetrates less than some handgun bullets !! Those are the facts not the perception !

 

[Robert H]

As a patrol rifle for cops and white glove clad Air Force security policemen, the AR is where it's at!

Too bad it didn't stay there!

 

[mwerner]

I gather by "frangible" our armorer was just talking about a soft-point design. We have a lot of stonework buildings here, and we don't need ricochets.

I'm familiar with the long history of this design and it' evolution; it's certainly well-proved.

Field-stripping can be accomplished quickly without any tools, which is good....I still remember my old M14 rather fondly. (I was in the army in the mid-60s, and the M16 was just being introduced. Never saw one.

 

[Absintheur]

I would suggest having your armorer talk to some of the good folks at CorBon about using the DPX loading for your primary carry. Without a doubt it is one of the best rounds currently available for SD or LEO work.

 

[glockman99]

...I still remember my old M14 rather fondly. (I was in the army in the mid-60s, and the M16 was just being introduced. Never saw one.

I'd take an M-14 over an M-16 any-day of the week...The .308 is alot better than the little .223 round.

 

[STAGE 2]

I'd take an M-14 over an M-16 any-day of the week...The .308 is alot better than the little .223 round.

It depends on what your using it for. 100 rds of .223 and an AR is sure alot more fun to carry than 100 rds of .308 and an M-14.

 

[WhitleyStu]

Just put this Colt M4A3 together and it is a sweet shooting rifle. I am "old school" and like to keep it simple. ACOG optics, Timney 3 lb. trigger, and a Harris bipod. I'll take a .223 (.30/round) over a .308 ($1/round) any day for a plinker...

 

[SIFU1A]

It depends on what your using it for. 100 rds of .223 and an AR is sure alot more fun to carry than 100 rds of .308 and an M-14.

man aint that the truth.

i took my H&K 91 a few weeks ago when i went out to our property in johnson city and had to do a few things, did a lot of walking around, only carried one mag in the rifle and one on my belt, and let me tell ya what that thing gets heavy/bulky, i cant imagine packing it with ~ 100 rounds of ammo and the rest of your gear if ya were doing something serious.

i usually carry my romanian AK74 w/a east german folder on it and its a lot easier to deal with.

the .308s do hit harder though.

 

[Absintheur]

For a Patrol Car gun the Colt makes a lot more sense than a .308 rifle. Even tho it won't be carried any distance the lower penetration is a better option in the bystander rich environment it will likely be used in. My AR's run a pretty full gambit going from a 10" shorty up through a suppressed 300 Whisper with several stops in between. I have just a single .308 semi, my FN/FAL. For precision shooting however the .308 is hard to beat, I have a old model Ruger 77 equipped with a Ciener suppressor that is both quiet and very accurate with Lapua Sub-sonic ammo for when I need to reach out.

 

[Mudflap]

Haven't taken the patrol rifle class yet, but have been considering it. Wondered one thing though. The two magazine thing seems to be fairly common among departments issuing these weapons. I guess from a liability/deniability/PC point of view it looks good on paper, but couldn't help wondering why just two for this type of weapon? Can't remember how many rounds were actually fired during the N Hollywood shootout, but I think it was quite a few.

 

[Absintheur]

The number of rounds expended in the North Hollywood shootout was never actually determined but the police were raiding area gun shops for more ammo. This was a basic failure of training combined with an abnormally high amount of determination on the part of Matasareanu and Phillips. Both were wounded repeated including center mass hits that penetrated their homemade armor but they continued to engage LEOs. The armor they were wearing was very heavy and they moved slowly yet no one could make a head shot even after rifles and SWAT were on scene. This is not a criticism of the LEOs involved but rather of the lack of training and arms provided by the department. It was a repeat of the Miami shootout in many ways. I have copies of all the available film shot during the incident and one man using a steady rest should have been able to end the situation early on rather than allowing it to continue for 44 minutes. Instead there was a huge amount of "panic" fire that did nothing but endanger others and make noise. I use the video when instructing to make the point that spray and pray does not work.

Practice, practice, practice....then practice some more. Do scenarios with simunitions so there will be a penalty for bad tactics (unlike paint balls simunitions hurt). Then practice some more. You want muscle memory to be able to function even when fear and adrenalin flood the system.

 

[mwerner]

Being in the business as long as I have, it's apparent that police departments with few exceptions are hidebound organizations with tight budgets and stingy oversight from city/state fathers.
Police officers were crying for weapons more potent than the .38 special (with round-nosed lead bullets) for many years before major departments began to allow and then finally issue .357 Magnums.
Likewise the transition to auto pistols was a long, slow road in most cases.

Police agencies tend to react strongly to "big incidents" that get a lot of media attention.
You never heard a word about "patrol rifles" until that North Hollywood affair.
Back when I started in campus law enforcement, it was touch-and-go that we'd be armed at all. Now, after Columbine, Virginia Tech, and other incidents, we're getting M16s....

 

[mete]

"big incidents " ?? At least here in NY there is a movement to equip pistols with video cameras to record these high profile incidents !!..Practice, training ?? They'd rather spend money on the latest gadgets and lots of PC efforts than on training !!

 

[kaiservontexas]

As you are not subject to the Hauge conventions. Why not load hallow points?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

The number of rounds expended in the North Hollywood shootout was never actually determined but the police were raiding area gun shops for more ammo. This was a basic failure of training combined with an abnormally high amount of determination on the part of Matasareanu and Phillips. Both were wounded repeated including center mass hits that penetrated their homemade armor but they continued to engage LEOs. The armor they were wearing was very heavy and they moved slowly yet no one could make a head shot even after rifles and SWAT were on scene. This is not a criticism of the LEOs involved but rather of the lack of training and arms provided by the department. It was a repeat of the Miami shootout in many ways. I have copies of all the available film shot during the incident and one man using a steady rest should have been able to end the situation early on rather than allowing it to continue for 44 minutes. Instead there was a huge amount of "panic" fire that did nothing but endanger others and make noise. I use the video when instructing to make the point that spray and pray does not work.

Practice, practice, practice....then practice some more. Do scenarios with simunitions so there will be a penalty for bad tactics (unlike paint balls simunitions hurt). Then practice some more. You want muscle memory to be able to function even when fear and adrenalin flood the system.

patrol officers went to b&b gun shop in n. hollywood, but the rifles never made it to the hands of those on scene.

the only rifle engagement from police was from swat officers who had m4's, and they were able to put one suspect down.

the other suspect died from head shot and simultaneous self inflicted wound.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

As you are not subject to the Hauge conventions. Why not load hallow points?

for the rifle? is there such thing as a hp .223?

ive only seen soft point, we use the hornady TAP.

as for the handguns, i know of no agency carrying anything but hollow points.

 

[Brutus013]

patrol officers went to b&b gun shop in n. hollywood, but the rifles never made it to the hands of those on scene.

the only rifle engagement from police was from swat officers who had m4's, and they were able to put one suspect down.

the other suspect died from head shot and simultaneous self inflicted wound.

The self inflicted wound was the headshot, but he was also shot in the spine at the same time. His AK47 had a stovepipe jam, so he committed suicide. The other person was shot in the knee and bled to death before paramedics arrived.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

The self inflicted wound was the headshot, but he was also shot in the spine at the same time. His AK47 had a stovepipe jam, so he committed suicide. The other person was shot in the knee and bled to death before paramedics arrived.

i disagree on the reason for the suicide. he had been engaging with his handgun prior to the self inflicted wound. it was fairly apparant he would not escape. he was on foot, and there were multiple officers nearby.

i thought the officer's shot also struck him in the head, not the spine, unless through the neck.

the other was shot in the lower leg, i dont recall it being only in the knee.