Pattern weld and Sanmai

Rusty McDonald

Rusty McDonald

Joined
Mar 28, 2007
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What are some of the combinations of materials used in the making of pattern welded damascus and Sanmai. I know 1084 and 15n20 but there are more combinations that are used just wondering what they are and what some of the best combos are?
Thanks for your time.
 
Rusty, Get ahold of Ariel Salaverria. He makes alot of san mai blades and does an awesome job of it too. Maybe he can give you a few pointers as to what will work and what wont.

Brad
www.AndersonKnives.ca
 
Rusty,
There are 3 excellent combinations for damascus. One is 1084 and 15n20 the best for beginners. O-1 and L-6 is a combination for more advanced steel workers, as it requires more skill and equipment. For non knife damascus 1018 and 203e is the best combination. There are many other combinations possible and these only cover the carbon steels. I have selected these because I have worked with all of these, and I have researched many possible combinations, from readily available steels. I am sure there are steels out there that are not commonly available that would make excellent combinations. There are several steel alloys that I would like to see produced specifically for damascus, but only if I make them myself or can contract someone to make them in small batches.
I hope this helps,
Del
 
Here are a few using various metals. There's a LOT more! Ariel Salaverria seems to do a lot of this stuff. His primary combo seems to be 1010/1070 with a 5160 core. He has quite a few tutorials posted.

1095/nickle w/ 1095 core (DanGraves)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=600628

1010/1070 w/ 5160 core (ArielSalaverria, uses this combo a lot)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589133
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599427

comparisons of different steel combos (ArielSalaverria)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=576952

304 (ss) /1070 w/ 5160 core (ArielSalaverria)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585563

banding steel. nickle w/ 1084 corre (atakach)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580349

304 (ss) / 416 (ss) w/ D2 core (ArielSalaverria)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=576943

meteorite/1080 w/ 1095 core (unclemike13)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=571007
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562640

chain/bronze w/ 5160 core (ArielSalaverria)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567517

304 (ss) / 1070 w/ 52100 core (ArielSalaverria)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539275

discussion about steel combos
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525655&

discussion on making san mai
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512647
.
 
Farmer Phil said:
Here are a few using various metals. There's a LOT more!
.
Click to expand...

Phil,

I'm not positive but I feel Del's point of reference has strict compatibility requirements... that is, steels with the same (or nearly) expansion/contraction ratios, MS start/finish temps., "nose" time, etc., so the steels do not try to do different things at the same time though the variety of heating/cooling steps of damascus making and blade forging... also needing distinct contrast, of course.

Mike
 
Oh. Sure that makes sense. Probably not too many combinations, but there are a lot more threads of damascus san mai knives. This is all amazing to me! I'm looking forward to learning more.
 
Mike Krall said:
Phil,

I'm not positive but I feel Del's point of reference has strict compatibility requirements... that is, steels with the same (or nearly) expansion/contraction ratios, MS start/finish temps., "nose" time, etc., so the steels do not try to do different things at the same time though the variety of heating/cooling steps of damascus making and blade forging... also needing distinct contrast, of course.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
Thank you for saying that, for me all the things that go into an excellent combination you listed above. This is part of the reason I listed so few combinations. There are many possible, however they fail to meet one or more criteria and so I don't list them.
I should also say that I am a fan of using pure nickel in my damascus, in a very precise and calculated manner. I do not use it blindly, and I know the many arguments against using a non-hardenable material in damascus.
Del

Mike,
In response to your earlier question about what kind of steels I would want, I would bring back O-2 even though it is occasionally available, and one of the combinations 15n20 fills quite nicely. I would like to see some non-stainless steels with more nickel for higher contrast. The best we get now is 15n20 and that only has 2% 203E has 4% but only .18% carbon making it good for non-hardenable damascus, but not for knife steel. Mostly I would tweek existing alloys to suit some applications better.
 
Last edited:
There's so much to consider. I thought it was basically contrast of look, and compatibility of HT temperature ranges. I guess I just assumed (without really thinking about it much) that if the temperature ranges were close then other factors such as expansion and contraction and cohesion would be in an acceptable range.

To tell the truth though, I hadn't planned on working with anything but 1084/15n20 as I see that is a very common combo. Although many folks use nickle too, I have avoided using it. I just couldn't wrap my brain around its softness, but do like its look. Hopefully I'll hear more about that here.

I have been planning on trying to use 5160 as a core, simply because I like it and don't know any better. Again, hopefully I'll learn more here.

Thanks for the thread!!!
 
This is what I was looking for, what the BEST combo's are for contrast, durability, and such. Also in the ease of welding categorie, which materials are best.
 
Del,

Well, I didn't dig up the information on my own... Kevin Cashen, you, Tim Zowada, "Mete", and others, learnt it to me.

Tim Zowada has recently listed damascus using O2. I've been meaning to ask where he got it... I figure Carpenter Technology, but there are other mills listing it as a steel they make.

I knocked around the Metal Ravne site (Solvenian steel mill) a bunch for a while. They have some great steels listed as available. I contacted their U.S office and was sent to Cincinnati Tool Steel as their American distributor and ran into a wall there... haven't lost interest... just trying to figure how to get steel when the head office and the distributor keep sending me to the other.

This is a list of Metal Ravne's low alloy tool steels... http://www.metalravne.com/selector/low_alloyed_tool_steels/low_alloyed_tool_steels.html

The steel I was most interested in is the second on the list... 85NiV4. I was looking at it as a compatible steel for 1084 &15N20 with what looks like a color inbetween the two... tri-color damacus...

Anyhow, Metal Ravne lists an O2 equivalent.

Mike
 
Farmer Phil said:
I have been planning on trying to use 5160 as a core, simply because I like it and don't know any better. Again, hopefully I'll learn more here.
Click to expand...

Phil,

We're talking San Mai here, right... solid core with damascus outter layers? Del mentioned O1&L6. If a person can stand some hoop jumping and can control their forge, it's a wonderful San Mai for either a cutter (O1 core) or a whacker (L6 core). I've done O1/L6 damascus in a forge... reduced grain size, spheroidized anneal, stress relieved, soaked, and austenitized. It's a lot of work and a lot of paying attention, but it can be done if a person is hard headed enough. The thing about these two steels is the qualities of each. There are a few steels that may cut better than properly heat treated O1, but almost none, and there isn't a forging steel that even comes close to how tough L6 is.

Have you thought about a 15N20 core. There is 0.095" 15N20 out there and a person could stack two pieces of the more common 0.063" together between the 1084/15N20 damascus layers. 15N20 is pretty tough stuff with 1.75% to 2.50% Ni.

Last... steels with higher amounts of chrome can cause weld failure problems... getting it to stick together.

Ooo! How about 15N20 core with cable damascus?... :)

Mike
 
now this is getting intresting, I love my 5160 would give that a shot but I love my 5160
I have a lot of L6 just sitting around and some 01 as well.
also have about 1500ft of 1.25" cable. may just have to give this a shot.
 
Hi Mike,

I've only made three billets of damascus (at Indian George's when I was visiting family back east) all with 1084/15N20 I got from Kelly Cupples. So, I've just dabbled the tiniest bit. They were very simple random layers, one with a lazy twist. The little bit of forging I've done (of HC steel) has been with 5160 and 1084 (not together). I had just seen so many of AES's san mai using 5160 as a core between two outer layer of damascus that I figured it must be ok. Of course most of his damascus was 1010/1070. Guess that's what makes it work.

I was hoping to do a few more billets (next time I get around a press) with 1084/15N20. Although I'll probably still work with exploring simple patterns, I've fantasized about a san mai like sandwich with them. One of the reasons being I thought I'd feel more comfortable using nickle in the damascus if there were a harder steel wedged between two layers of the damascus.

Anyway, I don't see myself branching out to yet more steels at this point, considering I'm just the noobest of the noobs in beginning to work with these few. Thanks for all your feedback. I still don't really get nickle, but might have an inkling some day.

All the best, Phil
 
Hey Rusty,

Wow, where'd you score that much heavy cable? I'm glad to see you're a 5160 kind kind of guy. But then, you have a lot L6 and 01 laying around too. Are one of those, what do they call 'm....steel oars???

Thanks for this thread. I ALWAYS learn so darn much from them. Cyberspace is about the only place I have to go to learn stuff. Of course it's no comparison to actually working with someone in their shop, but it sure is a bonanza of intel.

All the best, Phil
 
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