Pattern Welded Sword WIP

[John Frankl]

All good. I really appreciate these threads.

John

 

[Phillip Patton]

I really look forward to seeing where this thread goes. Not to change it's direction because I too am always happy to see another maker taking a shot (stab?) at European medieval swords, but can I suggest that by the time of Chivalry pattern welded blades were pretty few and far between especially as we advance into the period? I don't know if your interests run that way but perhaps for a pattern welded piece Ian Pierces "Swords in the Viking Age" might be a bit more appropriate?

However that quibbling aside I certainly don't want to throw you off the track and was wondering if you might be willing to give us a hint as to which Oakeshott type you were thinking of creating?

Thanks for your comments, and suggesting that book. I can certainly use all the reference material I can get. I just reserved it at the library.
The style that appeals to me is something along the lines of Wheeler's Type VII, which was toward the end of the Viking era, if I'm not mistaken.
Circa 900 A.D., according to the book.
I'm far from an expert on swords, but I do know what I like. This is not going to be an exact historical replica, but rather I'll just be taking elements I like from various swords and mixing them up. So, sword purists beware.

I'm really not decided yet what it'll be.

 

[Sam Salvati]

Oh yeah that is some good sword porn. Thanks for the fix Phil, keep em coming I cannot wait to see this, there is not enough sword makers herabouts and definately not enough wip threads. You take great pictures too Phillip.

 

[type00rev]

Fap, fap, fap, fap!!! Great thread....I can't wait to see more. Thanks much.

 

[Triton]

Thanks for your comments, and suggesting that book. I can certainly use all the reference material I can get. I just reserved it at the library.

Excellent, in most regards Pierce is to Viking Era blades what Oakeshott is to Medieval era swords. He does a fantastic job of bringing all the different classification systems into place and making them understandable. The book gives you all that plus hundreds of extant examples to look at. Also it gives some pictures of pattern welded cross sections which you will undoubtedly find interesting. It would appear that you are already well on your way there, but it might be interesting to see what you have picked vs what some of the historical examples have.

Another title you might find interesting is Hilda Ellis-Davidson's The Sword in Anglo Saxon England.

The style that appeals to me is something along the lines of Wheeler's Type VII, which was toward the end of the Viking era, if I'm not mistaken.
Circa 900 A.D., according to the book.

Wheeler's VII is roughly equivalent to Petersen's Type U which according to Pierce at least might be just a tad bit later then that say mid to late 10th century... at least until they find an earlier example which does in fact happen every now and again.

Of course now that you roughly have the hilt form picked out you are going to have to take a look at Geibig's typology (also in the Pierce book) and pick a blade type.

I'm far from an expert on swords, but I do know what I like. This is not going to be an exact historical replica, but rather I'll just be taking elements I like from various swords and mixing them up. So, sword purists beware.

There are only a few people alive in my opinion who are qualified to be called sword "experts." Notably those people are all FAR to humble to say any such thing. If someone DOES tell you he / she is a sword expert hang on to your wallet.

I don't think that concept will necessarily offend sword purists. That is after all what Albion has done quite successfully with their production medieval swords. Of course their mixing and matching is historically plausible they aren't fitting 10th century hilts on 15th century blades or anything.

A couple of more questions if I might, recognizing that you may not have really thought through what you want to do yet. Do you intend to make the pommel with a two piece construction as were the originals? Are you planning on doing inlay work on blade or upper / lower guard? Were you planning on adding distal taper? A fuller?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I just can't help remembering the fantastic cinqueda that was featured in blade magazine just recently (I cannot remember the makers name unfortunately.) Like yourself he was a knife maker that wanted to really push his own personal envelope and he was incredibly successful. Mostly with my questions I'm hoping to get the old wheels spinning a bit so that your idea turns out as happily.

 

[nikoknife48]

Bring it on!!

 

[Kevin Jones]

Can't wait to see this one progress.
Don't see many sword WIPs.
Thanks Phillip.

 

[supasuprab0b]

can't wait to see more, will be checking back for updates!

 

[richard j]

phillip makes some sweet knives and i'm sure this sword will turn out just as sweet. i cant wait to see it.

 

[Phillip Patton]

Another title you might find interesting is Hilda Ellis-Davidson's The Sword in Anglo Saxon England.

Thanks, I reserved that one too.

Of course now that you roughly have the hilt form picked out you are going to have to take a look at Geibig's typology (also in the Pierce book) and pick a blade type.

Actually, I don't have the hilt picked out for sure, but that's what I'm leaning towards. I won't have to decide that for awhile yet. I do need to figure out the dimensions and shape of the blade pretty soon though...

I don't think that concept will necessarily offend sword purists. That is after all what Albion has done quite successfully with their production medieval swords. Of course their mixing and matching is historically plausible they aren't fitting 10th century hilts on 15th century blades or anything.

That's good, maybe someone out there will buy this one.

A couple of more questions if I might, recognizing that you may not have really thought through what you want to do yet. Do you intend to make the pommel with a two piece construction as were the originals? Are you planning on doing inlay work on blade or upper / lower guard? Were you planning on adding distal taper? A fuller?

Given my lack of skill at carving steel, I'll probably go with the two-piece pommel.
Wasn't planning on any inlay. I'm undecided yet what material the guard and pommel will be. Could go with damascus, like many modern swordmakers are doing, or bronze.
I would like this too be wield-able, so I was planning on distal taper and fullers. The fullers will be ground in, both for the patterning effect and because I'm not equipped to forge them in.

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I just can't help remembering the fantastic cinqueda that was featured in blade magazine just recently (I cannot remember the makers name unfortunately.) Like yourself he was a knife maker that wanted to really push his own personal envelope and he was incredibly successful. Mostly with my questions I'm hoping to get the old wheels spinning a bit so that your idea turns out as happily.

No you're not asking too many questions. In fact I appreciate them. They are getting the wheels spinning.
This whole project is going to be a real learning experience. So far I've made two blades with double cores. The first was a dismal failure, the second one amazingly successful. The second one is a dagger, which I'm thinking about making into a companion piece for the sword.


Well, I only have two more pics right now:

Here I cut the billet in half...

...and drew both pieces out to about 24" long:

Next step is welding and drawing out the billet for the third core, and then twisting the core bars. I'll probably do some twisting sunday.

 

[blad5]

Great pics, Phillip, and looking forward to how this WIP progresses. One of your early pictures peaked my curiousity. Don't know why I never thought of it before. Pardon my ignorance but when one welds the rebar to the bar and then heats it, why doesn't it separate? Is the welding temperature higher than the forging temperature?

Incidentally, I am really enjoying the knife you made for me!

Paul

 

[atakach]

very cool!!!

 

[Triton]

That's good, maybe someone out there will buy this one.

You never know...

Given my lack of skill at carving steel, I'll probably go with the two-piece pommel.

Historically, that is the way they were done so I think you are following the right path. Typically most modern makers do a one piece pommel on Viking Style swords because their hilt components are cast and thus cheaper.

I'm undecided yet what material the guard and pommel will be. Could go with damascus, like many modern swordmakers are doing, or bronze.

From a marketability standpoint I would suggest the damascus or even plain steel above the bronze. Historically speaking, bronze was very popular but for whatever reason in today's market steel seems to be the metal of choice for both hilt and scabbard fittings. For every scabbard I do in bronze I do 15 or more in steel.

I would like this too be wield-able, so I was planning on distal taper and fullers. The fullers will be ground in, both for the patterning effect and because I'm not equipped to forge them in.

Excellent I'm a big fan of functional art. Historically fullers were ground in as well as forged so that's no problem.

I've got a name (I'll have to look it up when I get home) of a guy that builds these, if you have technical questions he may be able to help.

 

[Phillip Patton]

Great pics, Phillip, and looking forward to how this WIP progresses. One of your early pictures peaked my curiousity. Don't know why I never thought of it before. Pardon my ignorance but when one welds the rebar to the bar and then heats it, why doesn't it separate? Is the welding temperature higher than the forging temperature?

Incidentally, I am really enjoying the knife you made for me!

Paul

Hi Paul,
Glad you like the knife. I think that was my best hunter I've made.

To answer your question, when the handle is welded on, it becomes one piece with the rest of the billet. The only way it will come off is if there is something wrong with the weld, which does happen occasionally. And yes, the arc welding temperature is about a thousand degrees higher than typical forge welding, if I remember correctly.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Phillip Patton]

You never know...

Well, time will tell. This is not a commissioned piece, so if someone wants first dibs, they might want to speak up soon.

Historically, that is the way they were done so I think you are following the right path. Typically most modern makers do a one piece pommel on Viking Style swords because their hilt components are cast and thus cheaper.

From a marketability standpoint I would suggest the damascus or even plain steel above the bronze. Historically speaking, bronze was very popular but for whatever reason in today's market steel seems to be the metal of choice for both hilt and scabbard fittings. For every scabbard I do in bronze I do 15 or more in steel.

If I were doing a repro, then I would use bronze, but I'm not, and like you pointed out, people nowadays like damascus, so that's probably what I'll go with.

I've got a name (I'll have to look it up when I get home) of a guy that builds these, if you have technical questions he may be able to help.

The kind of technical questions I have are pretty much about dimensions. Like, how wide should the guard and pommel be, and how thick? How thick should the blade be? How long should the handle be? Etc.

Thanks for your input and questions. They're helping me solidify things somewhat in my mind.

 

[Phillip Patton]

Well, yesterday I forge welded the billet for the third core bar, and today I twisted the bars. I was expecting it to be a real pain, but in fact it went very well, and I feel pretty darned good about it.


Here are all the billets which will make up the blade. I have one more stack and weld sequence to do on the billet that will make up the edge.

Next step is to cut the core bars from their handles...

...then mark out two 2" sections. The first section will remain straight, the second will be twisted.

I discovered that the soapstone marks disappeared when heated up to near welding temps, so I used the angle grinder to make the tiniest little nick on the corner of the bar instead.

I'm sorry I didn't get any good action shots of the twisting, but my hands were slightly full. Here's what I got:

Here is the first section twisted:

 

[Phillip Patton]

I put flat dies on my power hammer, and used it to square up the twisted sections as I went along. Here is the first bar with two sections twisted and squared.
I'm alternating the direction of twist with each section. Clockwise, then counter clockwise, etc. I don't know how many twists are typical for swords, but I decided to go with 5 twists per section.

Here the first two bars are done. They are mirror images of each other.

The middle one just like one of the others, except the pattern is staggered, so that the twisted sections of the middle bar line up with the straight sections of the outer bars. Like so:

Here are some closeups showing the alignment:

There are a total of 16 twisted sections. It took three "heats" to do each one. First heat, two twists. Second heat, three twists. Third heat, square up and straighten. So about 48 heats. I think it took between 60 and 90 minutes to do all the twisting. Once I got a good "rhythm" going, it was actually kind of fun.


Now I have to go straighten the pieces, cut them to length, and grind them clean in preparation for welding the core bars together.

 

[NickWheeler]

Great stuff Phillip!!! :thumbup:

I was going to ask before how your shop would be this time of year without insulation, and I see you've got quite a coat on. How cold is it in your neck of the woods right about now?

I love the alternating twists, and you've got them laid out REALLY WELL!

 

[Triton]

The kind of technical questions I have are pretty much about dimensions. Like, how wide should the guard and pommel be, and how thick? How thick should the blade be? How long should the handle be? Etc.

Thanks for your input and questions. They're helping me solidify things somewhat in my mind.

I'll see if I can dig that out of Pierce's book for you tonight, although it sounds like you will have your own copy shortly. There's also some info in there about how many twists one might find. As for the rest... email incoming...

 

[blad5]

Thanks for the explanation, Phillip.

Another question--approximately how much time do you have to make the twists before you have to reheat the bar?

Paul