pattern welding AND stainless san mai questions

ScottRoush

ScottRoush

Joined
Jan 10, 2010
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I'm ready to start playing with some pattern welding... either the basic 1084/15n20 or some teko-gane with left over bits of various high carbon etc.

If I want to forge.... say.. 10" to 12" oal knives... what would be good starting dimensions for a billet since I don't have power hammers/press? Can you basically weld up a billet that is fairly close to the dimensions you want your knife to be???

That's what I've been doing with my san mai... is the next step simply to do some folds/twists?

Also.. since I've recently had success with incorporating nickel foil layers into my wrought iron/15n20 san mai by doing pretty tight welds with my wire feed.... I'm ready to experiment with stainless. I understand that when you seal up your billets with the welder, you should leave tiny pockets for gas release? How do you go about doing that? Or is it a simple matter of not getting anal about making the weld 100% tight? Any other hints? If somebody knows of a relevant link, you can send me to that....
 
I would recommend you get a DVD on making damascus.

The subject is far too large to cover here. You seem to have some things to learn before you start.
 
Thanks man but I've seen many videos and watched and helped at hammer ins.

but that wasn't the question... I'm wondering specifically what would be a good starting billet size (i.e. length, thickness of layers, etc) for a basic pattern weld for a certain size blade without power tools. I wasn't looking for any more than that.

I forge-weld tri-laminate san mai on a regular basis so it doesn't seem like a huge leap to pattern weld. I'm sure there are still folks out there doing this without presses and and powerhammers.

For actual damascus I will be making wootz in crucibles... but that is a different story.
 
The very few times that I've done it by hand hammering, I'd think you might allow more than folks with a press or power hammer might need. Probably need more heats, and might lose more material to scale and grinding. Maybe start with a least double the material that you think you'll need in the end.

Good luck with it. You do nice work over at tradgang, Craig
 
Thanks Craig.. yeah, I'm not looking at anything with 1000s of layers... just a simple pattern. Something to keep me warm in a Northwood's winter.

Didn't think about the loss through scale and grinding..... that helps. I was also assuming that folks with power normally make enough for several knives from one billet???
 
I'm not a blacksmith but I hope you don't mind if I ask a question...why don't you build a hammer? I think if I lived somewhere where I could forge my own steel that would be an investment well worth making. I don't know a whole lot about it but I HAVE spent some time working in an ironworks and it would seem to me that if you are forging blades of any type a hammer would be the first thing you'd want. Educate me please.
Grumpy
 
well I'm still new at this stuff and there is a lot to learn without power. A good 3 pound hand hammer can accomplish a lot. But then you progress into things and time becomes money and you start to think about one. They are expensive to buy and not the easiest to make if you don't have all the tools. However.. right now.... I'm weighing my options. This year I bought a KMG grinder which is quite an investment. 2011 will bring a press or a hammer I think. Between playing with pattern welding, wootz and smelting... I will need something I think.
 
Scott,

Well you are not giving us much info and that is why I suspect Stacy's reply was as such.

What you are asking is like how much can you eat, we have no idea! I would suggest start with a 1" X 1" X 6" billet If it is to big for you go smaller if you can handle forging it down go bigger. You will find by hand if you do not have the skills your just going to burn steel up and and end up with cold shuts. But hey I say give it a try at least you will learn your abilities.

Good luck
 
Sorry to come across that way.. There just wasn't any attempt to answer the question. I figured that i provided enough info demonstrating i at least know how to forge weld. I guess I was hoping to hear from people who have experience hand forging simple pattern welded billets.... And good starting dimensions for a knife 10-12" long. Is there anything else I should provide that would help with that? I have a bunch of hammers of different sizes, a vice, a forced air forge that can weld, a gigantic anvil, I'm two hundred pounds but can no longer bench my weight.... :)

Perhaps not the smartest question. Let's re-frame the question as... What can I do with pattern welding in a power hammer deficient shop?

Anyway... The idea of burning things up through the necessity of all the heats required puts things in perspective. Maybe i will just go the teko-gane route and just see how it goes...
 
You can make Ladder pattern with a cross pien, or a good rounded chisel. rain drop with a ball pien. of course theres random, and twist. as far as how big a billet you need for 12" knife, Id go with the 1"x"1x6" mentioned before.
 
the better answer is how much mono steel does it take youb to make a 12 inch knife

add at least 50% more for forging loss

next how manyb layers do you want do you thinik would a stack of 10 1/8 x 1 inch bars 6 inch would be fitting or maybe 4 bars 1/2 thick and mayb folds

how bout using shim stock and making 200 layers al at one weld
 
Ok, let me see if I can inject a little more information to help answer your initial question Scott.

You should assume a base loss of 50% of your material in pattern welding. It can certainly be less than that, but the economies gained are economies of scale which don't help much with a hand hammer :) This is also kind of a rule of thumb since the loss will be variable based on number of layers you start with, number of layers you finish with, how you get your layer count (cut, grind, re-stack vs. cut and fold), etc. You also didn't say how tall or thick of a 10" blade you want...

So, assume 1.5x the mass you want to finish with as a starting point. Now, you need to look into what patterning will do to your loss. Raindrop or ladder type patterns will have you either grinding away some of your steel and then forging down, or forging in your pattern and grinding off the tops. Either way, you lose material. For twisting, double your material (since the best part of a twist is in the middle...forge 2x as thick as you need and grind 1/4 of the thickness off of each side for best results). Loss just goes up from there. Some mosaic patterns can have 80-90% material waste depending on how they're done.

If you're looking to just do some basic random pattern, I'd start with thinner stock (1/8" 1080/1084 and .053" 15n20 or so) and do 1"x1"x6" as a start. Also, remember that you can make multiple small billets and restack them together later on to add mass for a finished piece. 1"x1"x6" as suggested above will be a good starting point. If you can comfortably do more, go to 1 1/4" thick the next time. I wouldn't recommend more than 1" wide working by hand though unless you have a striker with a sledge.

Hope that helps!

-d
 
Thanks Deker, that helped me too. Im do HATE the loss of all that material though!
 
Mike, LR and Deker have the right formula. I would add an additional 25% just for mess ups. I normally try to double the mass for a specific size blade. I used to start with a 1.5 x 1 x 6. This gave me enough for one large blade 8-10" or 2 smaller ones. That all depends also on are you forging full or stick tangs. Full tangs require 2x the material. I no longer do small billets. All mine start around 1.5x4x6 or larger. Some even up to 4x4x6. (I love my hammer I love my press). This way i can do a lot of pattern manipulation and still have enough for a few blades.
 
Scott,

I started out forging my billets by hand and I was forging billets 1 1/2" X 3" X 6", but I have been forging for over 10 years before I started making knives and I am 250 pounds and easily forge with a 6 pound sledge. You would not be happy if I told you to do what I can do and you tried just to fail because it was to much.

A lot of great advise from LR, Deker and Chuck. All have added great points. I would start with the 1" X 1" X 6" and do like Deker said make several. As you get it forged down you can use the multiple billets to re-stack with and by doing multiples if you feel you can do more than the 1" X 1" X 6" then by al means stack it up taller just don't bite off more than you can chew. Like suggested I would keep it at 1" in width, if you start getting wider you run a chance of welding the outsides first and not welding the center and it will cause you grief.

I am like Chuck now, a small billet is 1 1/2" X 4" X 6" I have a billet going now that is 6" X 6" X 8" that will be forged down to about 3" x 3" for hammers.

There is so much that plays into this so be sure you plan out what you intend to do and take your time and make sure your billets are hot ( no shadows and same color as your liner) and most of all have fun.
 
LJust a little to add. As Mike said, make sure it is hot thru and thru. For that added assurance get a thermocouple and readout. It is a small investment, about $50-$75. A small price compared to a scrap billet.This will help remove that is it hot enough doubt. Good luck,

Get it hot and hit it hard
 
Sorry if my answer seemed like a put down. You asked about playing with hand forging damascus, and then mention stainless san-mai. Stainless is the realm of very experienced makers in damascus. Hand forging carbon billets is a skill,too.
You say you are new to this and needed info. I suggested that some videos might help answer your questions.
Now you say you have experience, and understand the process well.
OK, so what do you need to know?

If you just want a billet size, I would go with twice the mass of the finished blade. A1.5X1.5X4" billet will forge out to a big knife. Try a billet of six layers of 1/4"1084 and five layers of 1/8" 15N20 . Weld up three times, using a three pound welding hammer,...... make sure it is solid. Clean up the surfaces, then draw out with a four pound vertical peen hammer, fold, weld, draw, fold, weld, draw ...seven folds will yield 1400 layers.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention before. Check my website (in my sig) for more info on material prep, process, etc.

-d
 
thanks a lot folks... that all helps a lot. And I am indeed just looking to do simple random patterns. My interest in all of this is more in the area of the natural patterns derived from heterogenous mixes of hard and soft steels made by historical smelting processes, shear, wootz, attar, teko-gane, etc. But since I'm getting decent at san mai, I thought it would be fun to take it one step further. I probably should have made it more clear that I'm not looking to step right into complex patterns with 1000s of layers. I would be happy with something as simple as cable damascus once I get my hands on some.

Stacy... ahh the difficulties of communicating this way. I think the other folks gave me pretty good answers though. I am indeed new compared to most folks who do damascus. But, as I alluded to above, I am now getting pretty good at making san mai billets with wrought iron and 15n20 with a nickel foil layer between. I went through a lot of trial and error to get this to work out for me... and it's working now because I finally have a proper forge, I'm allowing the heat to soak through, and I'm doing a dry weld with a tight bead along the entire perimeter. Nickel doesn't want to stick but I'm getting it to, so I feel like I might try stainless. If I have to go through the same trial and error process, that's fine.. but I feel like I've set a decent foundation for myself to try. I learn mostly everything on my own up where I live and I'm the kind of person that doesn't mind trying something when it will probably fail the first several times. But I would love any tips on how to get it to work a little faster!


A thermocouple is a great idea.. especially now that I have a forge that produces much more even heats than my previous venturi...

Thanks again and sorry to come across the way I did.
 
also.... I recall a thread on here started by Burt Foster showing how he made a giant stainless san mai blade (which I saw in Haywood last summer), but I can't find the thread anymore. Mostly I'm just curious about sealed the layers actually are when dry welding....
 
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