pay first, delivery second, who gets benefit

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vampor

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Jan 29, 2001
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Lanny just composed a long story to complain that he was
scamed one knife in an international deal through paypal.
Now I want to discuss the rule fairness. Yes, most of guys
are honest good guys. But the buyer send out the meney first
and then he began to bear the suffering of waiting for his knife.
At last he did not got it. How bad could it be! Why the rule is
not the seller send out the knife first, after the buyer got the knife
then pay for it. Since obviously the pay is much faster than the delivery of knives. Just a few minutes. Somebody would say that
it is too risky for the sender. But now the rule is the same to the buyer. At last even if he got refund after the investigation of paypal he would got a bad comment BAD GUY by the seller.
Why is it so hard for the truth to appear?
----As I know even one little package ,the reception need put down his signature in the notebook of the post man.------
 
Vamp...we ship after payment received and feel no guilt. We are an established (since 1935) business and are not hard to find if someone feels "screwed" You can walkin in our store, contact the Chamber of Commerce or Better Business Bureau up the street, or call the police. I am easy to find. On the otherhand, we ship to hundreds of folks all over the land, many to PO Boxes(never met a person that lives in one of those) and addresses that are sketchy at best. Even doing business this way, we have folks that contest charges on their credit card saying "I have never heard of New Graham" or "I never got the knife"
There are many individuals that send product and payment at same time, crossing enroute, so to speak, and that seems to work well in that situation. While most of you do not know us from a "bale of hay" we are well established, with a track record that goes back much farther than many mail order houses folks currently deal with.. Just my thoughts, Regards, Mike
 
Hi Michael, I agree with you if the sellor has a store.
But if he has not,how?
If the buyer lies the seller could call the police,too.
I do not know how about the package accept rule in your place,
but in our place, even if a normal package, the reception need
put down his signature when he got it. No mailbox directly put
in available. If it is a maibox ,the post office would put a notify
there and the reception need go to the post office to get his package with his ID card.
So the buyer could not tell a lie that he has not got it.

--------just talk about the possibility and my own opinions, not trying
to influence the business way of the honest and responsible men.---
 
vamp...it can get dicey trading with individuals. Forumites seem to generally be a notch or two above average. I have not done individual trades so have no first hand experience. There are those I have dealt with thru our store that I have come to trust. Ah, trust....a wise man know where it lies...regards, mike
 
I have never had any problems yet ,i have shipped over seas and everywere in the states , i try to be carefull and check out the forums for background info it all comes down to trust , maybe if we all take the time to post in the good bad and ugly forum we can have a referance to check out ???

Thanks Tim
 
I don't think there will be many dealers or individuals who would ship a knife overseas without securing the money first. Thats just the way it works.

Can't be helped, so no point groanin and moanin. If you live a good distance from the US, you're taking a risk with each order. I've had packages go missing and I ate the loss all three times it happened (probably local thievery after it arrives in the country). It wouldn't be fair to the sellers who shipped in good faith otherwise. All my orders now go UPS or FedEx. Costs quite a bit more but thats the way to go unless you're planning to move to the States...

Andrew L
 
IMO the seller is responsible for the delivery unless the buyer agrees to take the chance.

The buyer sends the money (MO, certified check) and keeps the receipt. If the MO gets lost, he can easily replace it.

The seller gets the money and sends the package. Upon an agreement -

a) he (the seller) takes the responsibility for the package and sends it insured (or registred, or with POD). That of course will cost extra money the buyer should pay.

b) Or the buyer wants to take the risk (save some change) and the package is sent by regular mail.

If the package gets lost:

a) the seller refunds the buyer the money and gets the insurance (I know it takes time....)

b) the seller is not responsible for anything and the buyer gets -0-

It has worked for me this way for almost 3 years now.

David

PS: When I order form States I always ask the seller to send the package insured and registered. So far I had only one less than positive transaction. The package got lost, the seller was not able to provide any proof that he actually sent the knife (not even the insurance number) but told me that he would send me forms to fill out (that I have never got the package). I guess the forms were supposed to be for the post office so he could collect the insurance. The forms never arrived either and the dealer stopped responding to my e-mails. I had no other way than to ask my CC company to do their job. I still feel bad about the transaction I wanted to solve it without the CC company involvement.
 
This has been a silent issue of mine for some time. I want to make it clear that I am speaking about individual to individual deals here, not dealer to consumer deals.

I have had countless deals with fellow Forumites and found them to definately be a cut (pun alert) above as I have never (knock wood) had a "bad" deal. I am right now in a four knife trade (two knives each way) and feel very confident.

I have asked, and most times been honored, with a "send the money while I ship the knife deal" so as to have the money and knife "cross in the mail" so to speak. A very, very small minority have gotten their hackles up over my suggestion, though I can not understand why. I just go along because I have been here awhile and have had favorable experiences. Sometimes it's easier to be a gentleman than to make much ado over nothing. But, honestly, why shouldn't the money and the knife "cross in the mail?"

I even had one Forumite go so far as to take umbridge with my pre-dispatch of a Bank Money Order in lieu of a Postal Money Order as he specified. I mean you really have to wonder where some of these people are coming from! If you are going to be so untrusting as to demand the money first, before shipment, then if the Bank Draft, Cashier's Check, bar room napkin or whatever doesn't clear, don't sent the darned knife.

Bottom line, I can't speak for everyone, but I am here to have fun and enjoy my fancy for things sharp. I have been blessed with new friendships and great relationships. It's a good place. I hope that my hopping onto this soapbox doesn't change my situation, but I've enjoyed good deals from good people around here and hope that to be the vast majority.
 
I have always felt that if I have seen a persons name on the forums often enough that they are probably ok, otherwise someone would have commented on them by now. The only time I ask for money in advance is if it from a newcomer. That is why I prefer to have their username sent with the e-mail,
so I can identify with who it is. I am also involved with the four way trade Nimrod mentioned and feel comfortable with the outcome :)
 
I used to do the send the $ first thing until I realized that the street runs both ways and if you're gonna take a risk, why, jump right in then! But really, I just have faith in the general good of the folks here, sappy I know, but that's my take and my experience since this place started.
 
Many of us, dealers/collectors cannot afford to just send a knife and expect the money to be forth coming. Wish I could work that way, but financially it would be suicide for my business.
 
Vampor,

I believe you are referring to this thread, yes?

www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125148&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

With few exceptions, I don't send a knife until I have received payment; similarly, I don't expect a seller to send me the knife until he/she has received payment. Very simply: transactions of this sort protect the BUYER more than the SELLER. If payment is made by Paypal (like you did), credit card, money order, or other secured means, then the buyer has recourse to reclaiming the payment if the purchased item doesn't arrive. Yes, it may be a hassle and it may be stressful, but it is more security than a seller has. Should the seller send a knife without first securing payment, he/she has NO protection against potential loss.

In fact, the situation you are pointing out here (and in the linked thread above) precisely proves the point. You made payment; Lshay sent the knife; the knife did not arrive; so you recouped your money via Paypal. Meanwhile, because Lshay was trusting enough to send the knife to an address different from the one you listed with Paypal, AT YOUR REQUEST, he is now out the cost of his knife, plus overseas shipping!

Am I missing something here? From how I read the two threads, YOU are not the one burned here; Lshay is. Bottom line: you have your money back, and Lshay is out quite a bit. I believe you are both being honest; however, I believe you are partially at fault for asking him to ship to an address different from the one you listed with Paypal. His only "mistake" was to ship under circumstances that did not safeguard him against potential loss -- and in this case, unfortunately, actual loss.

I have made two overseas transactions and experienced no problems with either, so I am not discriminating against transnational deals. What bothers me with this situation is your apparent lack of sympathy for Lshay's loss, while he was dealing with you in good faith. You may not "owe" him anything (that's for you two to settle). But it seems inappropriate to play the victim here when you got your money back, yet you STILL have the audacity to plea for a playing field that further secures your interests, without any regard for the seller.

Rant mode off --

Glen
 
This is a small example of a universal problem in almost all business transactions. The seller doesn't want to release the goods without being paid; the buyer doesn't want to release the money without getting the goods. Part payment or deposit is only a partial solution. Having the right to reverse credit card transactions, cancel cheques, sue for mail fraud etc all help a bit to minimize the risk for the buyer, but not completely- and they add to the potential risk for the seller.
The solution in larger transactions is to enter into escrow arrangements or more complicated security arrangements, like letters of credit etc.
I hear there is some kind of escrow service available on ebay or bidpay or paypal or something, but I would guess the fees are significant. Anyone ever use it?
Personally, I try to pick whom I deal with carefully and try to rely on my remedies ie, credit card company reversal, mail fraud investigation etc, in case I picked badly. It hasn't happened to me yet, although a couple of knives did go missing and had to be replaced.
That's one of the reasons this Forum is so great, and why the frank opinions in G B & U are so valuable.
As far as paying up front, waiting and waiting and losing the interest on the money advanced. I don't mind if the delay is short. I have heard complaints about it from time to time, especially with one particular company, but even that company I am sure was not deliberately delaying and scooping the payments for interest, liquidity or whatever. Such a practice, if not disclosed and agreed to, would be highly objectionable both as a matter of business and as a matter of law.
A good, inexpensive insurance or escrow service would be best for both sides, I would think. Until that happens, pick your vendor carefully, and I think sellers do have a legitimate concern over sending out the goods without full payment, or security for full value.
 
I know it is possible for Lanny to lose his knife without be paid.
But I really could not say "Sorry";
Why? I think I do not "own" him. He just said that
he lost both his knife and his money and made a conclusion that
I cheated in the deal. If I say "sorry" then it means I agreed to have cheated. The reason I asked him to ship to another address
is just want the package to be more safe and reduce to possibility
of missing. I just coud not understand it is really not a big money , how could one guy spend so much time in frand such a knife. What's more, lanny had never show me any evidence of sending the knife out. I have no friends in usps. Otherwise I will ask hime to investigate the number which lanny gave to me:LC610851556US. I would check when and where the package was picked up. If I got to know that he really sent out the knife I would repay him for the knife. I have contacted with him before I complained to paypal. He just buckpassing. Since no negotiation
I have to look for judge from the third party.
 
Vampor:

You sir are a liar!

I hate to take it to this point, but I can produce 40-50 successful deals on this forum with many members who have become friends. Do I have to post copies of the USPS reciept that I have repeatedly emailed you on this Forum to prove your lies?

So far no one you have supposedly dealt with has come forward to say you are a good guy. I wonder why?

Why do you list your address in Canada on KF? Is that a lie too? I have seen all the emails you've sent to the other Forumite you are 'claiming' did not send you a knife and see the same pattern I saw on our transaction.

I have written off the loss you caused me to incur I just hope everyone else on this Forum follows the lead of the dealers who have refused to do business with you because it "did not feel right" and refuses to do business with you.

Your refusal to even say "sorry" says more about your attitude towards other than I can ever say.
 
[sarcasm on]
Vampor, thanks a bunch for spoiling the cake for the rest of us guys who are already having a tough time buying stuff from the States :mad:
[sarcasm off]

Man, from his highly emotional responses you would think he was the only one in recent history to lose a knife in the mail...

Andrew L
 
May be that's the way people think it supposed to work?

When I bought from the forum, I'll have to send $$ first and wait until the guy "physically" received the $$, he'll then send a thing. (And sometimes even my $$ has already lands there, I still have to wait few more days before the seller get the thing shipped. :()

BUT when I sell my thing--as I don't do this for a living--I really prefer to treat it like a TRADE deal. (And actually I always do it this way. And actually many times that I ship it out before the buyer sending his $$ out.) So, it's me trading my thing with your $$.
And I think the fair trade deal, whether it's a knife-knife or in this situ knife--$$, is to SWAP.
Thus basicly, once the deal is done. . . I'm more than ready to ship my thing out. At about the same time that the buyer send out his $$.

If $$ get lost on the way, I do not complain.
If my thing get lost on the way, the buyer shouldn't complain, too.

:) May be it's just me. . .
 
You know what, Vampor? I've been silently reading up on the forums coz I can only do it once in a while now, unlike before when I'm here frequently. I've read both threads, and from what I can gather, the ONLY mistake LShay did, was to TRUST you and ship to a different address other than the one on Paypal, knowing (or maybe forgot) that by doing so, he won't be protected under Paypal's protection policy. And yet he did it anyway, bec. of trust... and for WHAT?? :mad:

Now you, my friend, just took advantage of someone else's TRUST, and now you're firing away at a guy whose only mistake was to give in to YOUR request of having the knife shipped to a different address! I feel ASHAMED of your actions, and putting yet another nail to the coffin regarding international sales, which we have painstakingly built up the trust amongst fellow forumites in the States.

Then you say that you don't have to apologize, etc..etc.. for this and that reason? Geez man, gimme a break! YOU are responsible for the loss (IF it ever occurred!) bec. YOU took advantage of someone else's trust, and now the guy is out $$$ bec. he thought he was dealing with an honest person! Then you had the NERVE to charge it back via Paypal?? Oh boy... you really have to look at yourself in the mirror and try telling yourself 10X "I am Honest". If you don't choke up on the 2nd try, maybe you are!

I had a knife shipped, it got lost, but even though it's been years, I still haven't forgotten it, and am still trying to save up to pay for at least half the cost or more, even though I don't have the knife! Why? SIMPLE! I don't want to break that trust that he gave me by risking a shipment of a knife to my country which got lost and it IS my duty to take full responsibility because the guy is trustworthy, and I know that he did in fact ship the knife.

Another deal was done as a straight swap/trade. My knife made it to the guy in record time, but it's been months and I have yet to see the knife I'm supposed to receive. Did I make a big deal out of it? Of course not! It's a risk we all have to take once in a while, and by plunging into a deal, obviously you should have understood the risk involved by proceeding.

You want sellers to ship knives to you FIRST, before you pay them? GOOD LUCK! :rolleyes: Make sure you let us know if you do find a seller willing to do that for you, and I'll show you a moronus firstclassus.

Dan

PS. I'm ALSO Chinese, that's why I'm quite affected by what you just did. :mad:
 
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