PE vs. SE vs. CE in life or death situation?

For self defense purposes give me a 9 1/2 to 12 inch Bowie with a sharpened clip. Serrated or combination edges will work, but I just don't see the need for them.

I do realize that a large Bowie is not a practical choice for most people.
 
I was asking myself this question many times. My conclusion is always the same : but it is only my opinion...

It is very difficult for me to consider a 3.5" folder as a weapon. It is like if you want to use a .22lr revolver in SD situation... I'm agree, it is better than nothing, but it is not the relevant device for this purpose. Asking yourself what is the more adapted blade configuration for a medium blade length it is like if you try to choose between lead or FMJ (? sorry, I don't know the English word for cooper coated bullet) .22lr bullet : the efficiency in SD situation is so low than it is not very important.

If you want to use a knife only for SD, buy a large ~ 6" fixed blade (like, per example some Bud Nealy's knives). If you need an EDC knife, which can be eventually help you in a SD situation, choose the better blade configuration for daily chores and just keep the edge very sharp !!!

ps : Of course, there are some persons who can be very efficient with a small calibre firearm or a short bladed knife, but they are very specialized. I think it is the result of many years training...

Have a nice day ! :)
 
My take and experience shows you do not want serrated in self defense knives.

Plain edge thats sharp cuts/slices through material easily.
Serrated edges teeth grab/drag on clothing and you end up with a cut not as deep or as long going through clothes.

Some clothes materials are better at hanging the teeth up than others.
Sweatshirts, wool sweaters, leather jackets will slow the cutting teeth as they attempt to pass through it with the above rsults.

Cotton seems to not be affected as badly by serrated teeth in testing.

I carry knifes with defense in mind and they all have straight edges.
Used to carry serrated or half serrated but after testing in classes with Keating and Bagwell over the years we could see for ourselves thats not the way to go.

Everyone has their preference, of course, but the facts if you have to go through material to get to the target [flesh] show straight edges get deeper cuts all else being equal [ if the knives are the same sharpeness].

You couldn't give me a serrated bladed knife for defense, well thats not true, you could but then I would give it away o someone I don't like that much.

Brownie
 
For cutting people, I think the serrated-edge is better.
But only to a very small degree.
Let's face the facts: if an adult man of average height and weight and strength, stabs or slashes you with as much muscle as he can put behind the blade, it is'nt gonna make any difference what type edge is on the knife.
 
I think a more pertinent point to be brought up here is "what am I going to do to survive?" Sure, maybe PE is better that SE, or vice versa, but if you only carry a 3" PE or SE blade, then that is the one that you are going to rely on for survival. We can monday morning quarterback the question of "well, what if he's wearing this type of clothing or that type of clothing..." but the bottom line is you are fighting for survival. You have to do whatever it takes to incapacitate your attacker and then get out of there. In my experience, the most vital areas to accomplish this incapacitation are the face and neck. If he can't see or breath, he can't fight. Remember, you should not be thinking about standing there going toe to toe with somebody. Strike fast, strike hard, and run away to safety.
Additionally, some localities have restrictions on blade length. If you carry a larger knife for self defense, and it is illegal to carry, guess who gets jammed up? Yes, you will be alive to experience our legal system in action, but unfortunately you will be on the wrong side of it. The criminal who tried to attack you will be looked at as the victim. (sucks doesn't it?)

Just my two cents worth.
 
So lets see here, the consensus is that for self-defense, plain edge is the best. Maybe if you're a trained knife fighter or killing hogs like Mr. Harley.

But for personal defense, with minimal training, Spyderco developed a knife, the Civilian for self defense in cooperation with law enforcement. The Civilian is a serrated knife; the plain edge version was made only for collectors. It's smaller sister, the Matriarch is only available serrated. In addition, the serrated Endura is one of the more popular blades used in martial arts.

Can the arm chair experts be right, and the classroom and field experts be wrong?
 
brownshoe:

I don't think the makers really think about the issue of plain edge or serrated edge in defensive situations when designing their blades.

They make knives, they are not knife fighters as a rule. To think the maker is knowledgable in defensive knife is like thinking a car maker knows how to drive like Mario Andretti.

I have no inside knowledge of why the civilian was made primaritly with serrated edges by the maker, but I somehow don't think it was because they thought it would be better at defensive cuts.

At the time, the serrations on knives were the rage and "cool" factor. That would bring more sales to the maker if it had serrations at one time.

The armchair experts would be suspect, however when you have knifers who train and carry them for defensive purposes testing the equipment available to them from makers saying in testing the two that serrations grab clothes and produce less deep cuts and slow the blade to some degree people should pay attention one would think if they are prudent.

street soldier: stated
"We can monday morning quarterback the question of "well, what if he's wearing this type of clothing or that type of clothing..." but the bottom line is you are fighting for survival"

Thats not Monday morning quarterbacking, it's called the 6P principle.
That would be:
Proper, Planning, Prevents, Pis#, Poor, Performance sir.

A little forethought goes quite a long way in determining whether one has the right equipment with them to do what might be needed to be done.

If I MAY have to use the knife in defense of my person, he will probably be dressed. He will also likely be wearing clothes that will have to be breached before the knifes edge makes contact with his skin. If these are probables and even possibles, is it not prudent to plan ahead for these events a little?

Bottom line may be I am fighting for survival but the equipment can hinder or help you in that, dependant on your making the correct choices of equipment.

Serrated will do but it's not my first choice for defense.

If I have a choice and I choose the wrong thing I may suffer for that decision. Cut the odds and go with your best chance at accomplishing the objective if you have to use your knife to defend with.

Anything less is not prudent.

Brownie
 
I guess you'll have to see for yourself...
Take a post or tree and wrap about 5" of old carpet or leather or whatever around the post.
Then take two knives, one serrated and one plain-edged but otherwise equal, and attack!!!

Inspect the damage each knife produced and draw your own conclusions.

No, this is'nt really equal to hacking and slashing a real person, but at least you should get some idea of how they perform.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
From what I've gathered at the Spyderco forums, much of it from company representatives, the Civilian/Matriarch was purpose built with the active input of experts in self-defense. Because of the special purpose design the knife is sold with a recommendation it not be used for routine chores. This also means you always have a factory edge, until you use the knife for protection. The blade design is effective, proven, developed by experts and thus patented. It was recently copied by Cold Steel.

The serrations on a Civilian/Matriarch are deep and severe. Their purpose is to rip through virtually any type of protective clothing to reach flesh in one stroke. The knife is a slasher, not a stabber. It is made to convince an attacker to back off imediately. The knife can cut Kevlar. The recurve and fine tip is meant to provide the deepest possible penetration during the slash. The blade design was tested for this purpose.
 
two thoughts:

- what about curvy blades? like the ones you see on those balisongs or kris? they look like they could slice throught things better (clothing during stabbing) than straight blades without the drawbacks of serrations. Any folders made like this, or only fixed?

- are the serrations on the civilian/matriarch the same as normal spyderedges? or different? the spyderedge does get stuck quite a bit on things as the teeth are very prominant and the grooves of the scallops deep. I find that normal serrations from other knives get stuck much less because of their lower profile

My thoughts:

IMO the best thing to defend oneself when repercussions of the law are NOT an issue is to stab. Cuts don't do much damage with 3" or under blades (to incapacitate limbs, destroy tendons, etc). Cuts are also not always felt until the person NOTICES the damage. However, stab wounds do much more damage, do deeper into the flesh, draw more blood. And it is true that PE go in and out smoother than SE.

Serrations do more damage in slashing as well as making the person you are cutting feel more pain as opposed to a clean cut but the drawback stated above evens the advantage out.

Therefore, IMO, it boils down to what you would do primarily in a self defense scenario that dictates choice of edge. If slashing is primary action then SE. If stabbing is primary and slashing secondary then PE. For me, a cut is a cut. There is slight advantage in SE here but a sharp PE does comparable damage too not to mention coarser sharpened PE. Yet PE polished or coarse can stab better than SE. Therefore to me PE fulfills my needs in a self defense folder.

On larger blades I would opt for 50/50 since stabbing can be done by the PE front portion with longer blade length to penetrate without worrying about serrations getting caught whereas up close if in a struggle i can more easily utilize serrations on hands, face, etc...
 
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