Peening Pins question

etp777

etp777

Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Messages
2,259
OK, first attempt at peening pins today, had the little set of 4 woodworking knives from TKS, and was jsut making them for myselves(and to see how homemade micarta worked out, not as well as I wanted). Anyways, decided instead of just expoxying pins this time, I'd peen them. Had already epoxied on both scales, and epoxy was dry(this may be my problem). Went to peen them, and at least twice, had problems with pin bending some. FIrst wasn't too bad, but second time I managed to break epoxy and shift slab a bit off center.

I know first thing I need to do is use shorter pins, as I left them a bit too long, and so it was puttting too much leverage sidewise on the scales. But is there any other tips, both to keep the pins straight, and to keep from breaking epoxy(which I guess are two sides of same coin)?

THat being said, these scales are all on there VERY well now. THings aren't moving at all, and won't unless I cut out the pins.
 
You already figured out shorter.
You didn't say what size you were using, but larger pins are going to bend less than smaller ones.
Also, bevel the edge just slightly so you don't get a 'false' mushroom head.
Some use the flat part of the hammer but I think most use the pein head. In any case, have a special hammer for peining and which ever end you use, have it very highly polished. It makes a neater job of it.
Second to last, use slow cure epoxy and rivet the thing wet during your glue up.
Third, you really don't have to pein pins to hold on a scale. Most don't unless they want that look as part of the knife. Have a look through the gallery and you will find the vast majority of pins are not peined at all.
 
There is really no need to peen pins in handle material. You stand a very good chance of splitting the handle material, plus epoxy will hold them just fine.

I assemble the handle all at once. On full tangs, I fix a scale on with 2-4 drops of CA, just at the edges. Let it setup for a few minutes, and drill the pin holes using the tang as a template.
I outline the tang on the scale with a pencil, then rap it sharply on the edge of my work bench. It will pop right off.
Repeat with the other side, trim off any excess you want to get rid of, do the front of the scales, quickly sand the old CA off from the scales, and tang, wipe everything down with Acetone, butter it up, and assemble.
When it's all dry, grind the pins down as you finish the handle.

When I first started, I did the one side at a time routine until someone showed me a better way, and I found that it saved considerable time, in fact more than a day.
Just a suggestion. :eek:
 
What Mike said. The only time I peen is when I either do not use glue or when I go out of my mind and use animal glue or something of the like because that's the way they used to do it. Some time I'll tell you about using tar to hold the scales and how the knife stuck to my hand everytime I used it.:o
 
Originally posted by tmickley
You already figured out shorter.
You didn't say what size you were using, but larger pins are going to bend less than smaller ones.
Also, bevel the edge just slightly so you don't get a 'false' mushroom head.
Some use the flat part of the hammer but I think most use the pein head. In any case, have a special hammer for peining and which ever end you use, have it very highly polished. It makes a neater job of it.



This is the way its done correctly on folders. etp777 print this out and hang it in your shop.
Click to expand...
 
Well, there's always a hard head in every crowd and this time it gets to be me. I firmly believe that knife handle pins need to be peined. There are chemical bonds (epoxy) and mechanical bonds (peined pins or screws). A chemical bond is good and a mechanical bond is better. And when you can do both it's the best of both worlds. That's just my opinion and it's what I practice in my shop. But there's room for everybody's opinion so thanks for letting me have mine.

etp777, my advice to you is to learn to properly pein pins before you dismiss them out of hand and go strictly with epoxy bonding. It's part of the learning process and something you shouldn't skip over. Especially since you're just getting started. As a side note, the most practical way to decide when to pein pins is to know how the knife will be used. If it will be a hard use knife, that's a good time to pein pins. It's just good common sense.

When you want to do the best job on peining pins you should always countersink or slightly 'flare' your pin holes on the outside of the scale or slab. (Some handle materials won't take much flaring and will crack on you so be careful what handle materials you choose for peining). That way when you pein the pin it will actually increase in diameter inside the pin hole and lock that handle slab on tighter than dicks hatband. In order to get the right length sticking out after you've epoxied the slabs on use this guideline. The pin should stick out a bit more than it's own diameter. Don't worry too much about pin length while you're assembling the handle though. Just leave plenty sticking out on both sides and you can snip them or hacksaw them off to size and then file them up to the right length afterwards. And like was mentioned earlier, always pein the pins during the 'tacky' stage of the epoxy drying process. That way the shock of the peining hammer won't break the bond of the epoxy and it gives you the chance to get the slab that much tighter on the handle. I roll my pins in epoxy before installing them, and peining them while the epoxy is still tacky causes the excess epoxy to squish out during the peining process. That's another good reason to pein the pins when the epoxy is tacky.

There are many ways to do it but here's how I've always started the peining process after getting them to the right length. I use a 1/2 pound ball pein hammer to get started. I 'set' the pin with a firm whack with the flat face of the hammer first. You need to get the whack straight down in alignment with the pin for the best results. Then keep tapping until you can actually see the pin flaring out towards the bottom. When the pin is contacting the sides of the pin hole switch to a smaller hammer (I made a small one for this) and use the ball end to finish up the head of the pin. If you got the length right there shouldn't be any pin left to sand off. If the head of the pin cracks on an edge just file it flat until the crack is gone and keep on peining. Roll those outside edges down until they contact the handle and then work the center of the pin down until you're happy.

Now having said all that I'll say this about that. I work the peining process in stages. In other words, set all the pins first (on each side). Then use the flat of the set hammer on each pin in turn to flare the pin out. Then follow up with the ball end of the small peining hammer and finish them up one at a time. That's just how I do it but it may give you a leg up when you try it for the first time. I'm sure I missed a few things here and there but hopefully this will help you out some. Have fun and keep an open mind.

(Edited to add something I forgot)
Someone mentioned it earlier but I'll repeat it here. Knock the sharp edge off of each end of the pins so they won't hang up when installing them. Also, to make life easier, slightly countersink both sides of the handle slab pin holes and the holes in the tang. You'll have to knock the burrs off of the tang after countersinking the holes with a file or dremel stone.
 
Lots of good points here. I like to pein my pins too. One thing not mentioned is that some pins are not dead soft as you buy them. If you get in the habit of annealing all your pins life gets a little easier. mike
 
OK Max
In case I'm The hard head :D
I should reiterate on what I said on how I do it

I do it the same as Mike in the softer materials and I
use dovetail bolsters (most the time)
and if using dove tails on both ends there is no
reason to CHANCE braking your materials by
peened pins so I just barb them and Epoxy

NOW peening pins in metal to medal
is another story,

yes by all means peen the pins
though I don't use epoxies on these pins because you
will end up with a ring around the pin you will see
if you pin metal (bolsters) and use 1/8' pins as I use
most the time in straight Blades

I leave as max does a little more then the width on both
ends BUT you may think that's a lot of extra pin
to pound into that little hole , what I do different
is I cone the ends at about 60 degree's and the shoulder of
the cones should end up
at just about the surface of the almost finished surface ,
( i place dummy pins in to get to the almost finished state)

when you peen the cone of the pin and hit it
you in effect drive a column of pin material inside it self
expanding the inner pin out against the slight
taper you put in and
not driving the pin against it self
now you may end up with a little space in between the
tang and the bolsters ,

before you are done peening
take a piece of leather and lay it on the anvil and peen
again, this will drive the pin through the bolsters just enough
and tighten the
bolster against the tang then finish peen with out the
leather(buffer)
(this amount of extra pin should give you just enough to finish off.)

The next set of bolsters I do I will do a picture tutorial on it and
put it on the knife making site.

this is the way I do it just a little different then other makers
but for the reasons I have said..just the way I do it.
:)
 
Thanks for tips all.

In past, knives haven't had peened pins, but I liked the idea for a hard use knife. So since these four knives were just for my own use, and at elast as important, since they were micarta handles(as I was less worried then about cracking the scales), I decided I'd give it a try. Didn't come out as well as I'd hoped, but as always, was a good learning experience. And even so, doesn't effect their usefulness as wood carving knives, which is why I got them.

Love the vast amount of nowledge that being a member of this board gives you access to
 
Wayne Goddard showed an angle iron clamp for holding pins. Take 2, 4" long 2x2 pieces, place the flats together with a business card in between them. Then drill for the size pin you are using, remove the card and this gives you the proper spacing to clamp on your pin. By doing this you can have 1 side peened without any wear and tear on your handle material.
 
The only time I peen is when I either do not use glue or when I go out of my mind and use animal glue or something of the like because that's the way they used to do it.
Click to expand...
Peter: What kind of animal is it from??? A male???:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:
 
777 and all,
Some good hints in this thread, I'll be rounding the edges on the cut off side and using a pice of leather for a 'spacer.' One thing I like to do is to center punch the pin after cut to length. It seems to spread better with a slight dimple.
Lynn
 
Peening pins on scales should be completely unnecessary if using good epoxy. You see: epoxy keeps the scales with considerable strenght and trying to free them by ripping them straight out is impossible. The only way to make e'm get loose is forcing them laterally, but pins make this impossible, so epoxy and pins act ortogonally to each other and make impossible to break the bond.
Peening pins can (and usually will) break frail materials such as abalone, ivory, hardwood and such, as the pin expands with tremendous force.

One thing that can make MUCH difference, instead of peening pins, is to make some cannelures in them at about half depth (be careful NOT to do it near the extremities were you will grind them down or they'll leave a very ugly space between scale and pin!).
The epoxy will collect there creating a stronger bond.
The "epoxy pin" is another trick: you dirll a big hole in the handle. It helps balance and epoxy will fill it and bind scale-to-scale. If the scales are of a porous material, such bind is enough and pin's aren't even needed if you have a couple three such holes (and the epoxy is strong). The scales will sooner break than unglue.
 
Like I said Alarion, I'm a hard head. But I came by it honestly. My teacher, Mr. Ogg, was very emphatic about it. "Boy, if you use pins on a full tang knife you pein them. Every time. You just have to teach yourself how to go carefully and use a light hammer on the handle materials that are prone to split". He encouraged me to make my own peining hammer from some 3/8" drill rod and I did. I still use that hammer today.

I took his instruction to heart and have had very few problems. The main reason for that is because I go slow and really watch the pins as I pein them down. When they're finished and have sealed well I quit and file/sand them the rest of the way while I'm finishing he handle. I guess it's just a personal preference, but I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on some off the shelf epoxy. And I guess it's working because in the past 8 + years I've only had one knife come back with loose/busted scales. That was the first one I sold for real money back in '95 and the scales were bone. The handle flexed when it was dropped (personally, I think there was a little more to it than that) and split right between the pins. That epoxy let go and my half assed peining job let the front part of the scale fall off. Never again.

Now, if you want to have a real good laugh, here's something that's sure to tickle your funny bone. I made some mosaic pins with brass tubing and brass and copper wire a while back. Instead of pumping it full of epoxy to seal it I soldered it. It was a real chore and I won't be doing that again. But anyway, when I used mosaic pins for the first time I was stuck with a problem. To pein or not to pein? Of course, in the end I peined them. And it turned out fine after a little fiddling around. In fact, the peining filled in those annoying little bubbles in the solder. And the soft solder actually helped a great deal to get better expansion. So, you can call me a pin peining extremist. Or a hard head. It's your choice. I guess the thing I should call attention to here is that I make mostly hard use knives and very few of them are full tang any more. Folks that make art knives and use high dollar handle materials don't really need to go to the extra trouble peining pins and taking the risk of splitting them (and they probably look nicer unpeined). So, it's all in what your end product is in regards to pins and peining. And that's just my hard headed opinion. :D By the way, what's that word 'ortogonally' mean? Did you just make that up?

I didn't post this info here to fuss and fight. I'm just bound to say what's on my mind just like anyone else. When a fellow's learning something he needs to learn everything, not just the fun parts or the stuff he thinks applies to him. Well, there again, that was my teacher's view on things. Learn it all and use what you need. Once again, thanks for letting me have my opinion because I sure have enjoyed reading everybody elses. This is a good thread going here.
 
Alarion, the shock from an impact can make epoxy release. That's why I stopped using it on full tang knives and went to DAPS WeldWood contact cement instead. You can run over something held together with that stuff with a truck and it won't let go.

I agree 100% with Max!
If your goal is to make the best knife you can, why would you leave a step out of the process that you know will make the knife more durable?
Piening pins is not a difficult process to learn. It just takes patience and a light touch.
I use a small chipping hammer to pien even 1/4" pins with. Bought the hammer at the flea market for a buck. The stacked leather handle was rotten and fell off so I heated the head till it was glowing a nice cherry red and dunked it in some used motor oil and then polished the face up. I hold it between my thumb and index finger and so the handle is free to move. This allows the head to bounce when I tap the pin. I work all the pins on one side a little, then flip it and work the other side, then back to the other and keep doing that till both sides look good.
One thing that really helps is to have a chunk of hardened steel as a backer to the pin. I use a chunk of steel about 3" round that my neighbor, Russ, AKA-Rotor on the forums, heated up in his forge and quenched in oil and gave me.
Works great for piening pins too, thanks Russ!
I polished the surface of that too.
It seems to help alot to have the surfaces as slick as possible. I guess it gets as much of the force of the hammer blow as possible into the pin material.
Excellent and often overlooked subject for your thread ETP!!!
 
OK Max I'm sold on peening. I'm gonna practice on some materials other than steel on steel. Don't see any reason not to for exposed, non-mosaic pins. The acorn nuts I'm using are kinda pricy.

One thing I also wonder about is epoxy pins - not hidden, but complete.

I use acraglas. Very,very tough stuff (Designed to form a bed between a rifle action and stock - years of abuse, pounding and heat doesn't touch it.) I've died it black with success.

Just thinking out loud, but what if I taper reamed the pin holes in the wood and just filled with epoxy. Even if the bond is gone or the wood separates, the tapered epoxy will still hold. Maybe I'll try this out on some scrap steel and do a destruction test. I don't think this will work with 'normal' epoxy since it isn't designed as a fill. JBweld might work, but it looks awful. But would acraglas outlast the wood?

Black or red pins as a design element? hmmmmmm......

(Sorry, just thinking out loud.)

Steve
 
Originally posted by L6steel
Alarion, the shock from an impact can make epoxy release. That's why I stopped using it on full tang knives and went to DAPS WeldWood contact cement instead. You can run over something held together with that stuff with a truck and it won't let go........]
Click to expand...




If I understand correctly, Weldwood adheres on contact, and you can't shift the glued pieces.
Do you assemble one slab at a time, and drill the pin holes at that time?

I hope you use protection when using it, as it's toxic, and can cause a host of problems, like brain, and central nervous system damage.

http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/CONTACT CEMENT DAP WELDWOOD.htm
:confused:
 
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