When I was young, there were a few of the guys that would take a spoon and tap the edges of a quarter till they made a ring out of it. The light tapping, seemed,like for days, would move the outside of the silver into a mushroom shape. The same thing applies to peining a pin, light taps and a lot of them with a "polished" ball of the ball pein hammer. I have a small chunk of iron with a raised spot on it about a 1/4" square that I use to put the back side of the pin on. The edges of the pin are also rounded off to keep from cracking out an to fill the small chamfered edges of the hole. If you leave too much pin, you can file it off before you are done peining.
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Peening Pins question
- Thread starter etp777
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2000
- Messages
- 643
itrade, think about that a minute. Epoxy pins? Even acraglass pins? Epoxy and glues in general are made to ahdere to surfaces and 'bond' things together. It doesn't have any tensile strength by itself. Fill a drinking straw with mixed epoxy or acraglass. Let it dry good and hard. I'm thinking that drinking straw is probably 1/4" in diameter. Now take a 1" long piece of 1/8" brass pin stock and cut a 1" long piece of that drinking straw full of cured epoxy or acraglass and lay them down side by side. Which one do you think you can break in your bare hands? I doubt you can even bend a 1" piece of 1/8" brass pin stock in your bare hands. I know I can't. Now try it with the epoxy or acraglass filled straw. What do you rekon will happen? SNAP!
That's the best way I can answer your question about epoxy pins. Epoxy has no shear strength in small diameters. It's worthless as a pin substitute. It might make you feel better but you just as well not even drill a hole in a handle slab if you don't put a solid metal pin in it. Does that make sense? If you drill a big hole and taper it and fill it with epoxy all you have is a big ugly epoxy hole. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Ok, to go a step further. Try assembling a full tang knife handle using only epoxy pins. Don't put epoxy on the slabs or tang. Just clamp the slabs onto the tang and drill your pin holes. Then tape one side of the holes and fill them up with epoxy. Heck, you can make the holes 1/2" if you want to. Would you have confidence in that knife handle staying on? If so, why? And if not, why not? Now how about if you just used 1/8" brass or nickel silver pins and no epoxy? You'd have a little more confidence in those slabs staying on wouldn't you? Maybe alot more? Hmmm......
It may seem like I'm getting heated up here but I'm not. I'm trying to make a point and get folks to think about their processes. Stop and think about what you do and why you do it. That's all. Common sense kind of stuff here. Let's get some discussion going here and somebody prove me wrong so we can all learn something.
That's the best way I can answer your question about epoxy pins. Epoxy has no shear strength in small diameters. It's worthless as a pin substitute. It might make you feel better but you just as well not even drill a hole in a handle slab if you don't put a solid metal pin in it. Does that make sense? If you drill a big hole and taper it and fill it with epoxy all you have is a big ugly epoxy hole. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Ok, to go a step further. Try assembling a full tang knife handle using only epoxy pins. Don't put epoxy on the slabs or tang. Just clamp the slabs onto the tang and drill your pin holes. Then tape one side of the holes and fill them up with epoxy. Heck, you can make the holes 1/2" if you want to. Would you have confidence in that knife handle staying on? If so, why? And if not, why not? Now how about if you just used 1/8" brass or nickel silver pins and no epoxy? You'd have a little more confidence in those slabs staying on wouldn't you? Maybe alot more? Hmmm......
It may seem like I'm getting heated up here but I'm not. I'm trying to make a point and get folks to think about their processes. Stop and think about what you do and why you do it. That's all. Common sense kind of stuff here. Let's get some discussion going here and somebody prove me wrong so we can all learn something.
A couple comments...
I always pein bolsters and have on occasion peined scales. I usually prefer pins ground flush with the scale handle -- just my sense of asthetics that go with my style of knives. Most of the time I dovetail the scales with the bolster so the scale isn't going anywhere. I have cracked enough scales peining pins that I don't do it any more. Doesn't mean I never will, I just don't now with the style of knives I'm currently making. I have also tested several handles to destruction (non-peined) and I'm pretty satisfied they will hold up under hard use.
A question needs to be asked -- Will expoxy last 100 years? None of us know and never will unfortunately. Peining certainly wins out here but on the other hand will the scales evenutally crack like you see on many old knives? I'm not sure of the answer on that one either.
One last comment, I think some knives just wouldn't be right with out peined pins. I have to admit I'm jealous of some one having the guts to pein $100 ivory scales.
I always pein bolsters and have on occasion peined scales. I usually prefer pins ground flush with the scale handle -- just my sense of asthetics that go with my style of knives. Most of the time I dovetail the scales with the bolster so the scale isn't going anywhere. I have cracked enough scales peining pins that I don't do it any more. Doesn't mean I never will, I just don't now with the style of knives I'm currently making. I have also tested several handles to destruction (non-peined) and I'm pretty satisfied they will hold up under hard use.
A question needs to be asked -- Will expoxy last 100 years? None of us know and never will unfortunately. Peining certainly wins out here but on the other hand will the scales evenutally crack like you see on many old knives? I'm not sure of the answer on that one either.
One last comment, I think some knives just wouldn't be right with out peined pins. I have to admit I'm jealous of some one having the guts to pein $100 ivory scales.
Max,
Good idea for a test. I know epoxy is just built for sticking things.
However, acraglas is built for filling things. It's reenforced with nylon. I have a rifle where I installed glas pillars. Nothing touches wood. The bolts that clamp the trigger plate (name?) to the action orginally ran thru wood. I drilled those out and formed thick, hollow pillars filled with glas. So, the trigger plate rests on glas and so does the action with glas all the way thru.
It takes a beating and doesn't crack. That shows that glas is different than epoxy (which would never hold up). However, that still isn't quite the same application.
Your test is a great idea! I'm gonna try it. Even if the appearance of black pins suck, I like your test idea. I'll probably do a heat test too (where brass is sure to win).
Steve
Good idea for a test. I know epoxy is just built for sticking things.
However, acraglas is built for filling things. It's reenforced with nylon. I have a rifle where I installed glas pillars. Nothing touches wood. The bolts that clamp the trigger plate (name?) to the action orginally ran thru wood. I drilled those out and formed thick, hollow pillars filled with glas. So, the trigger plate rests on glas and so does the action with glas all the way thru.
It takes a beating and doesn't crack. That shows that glas is different than epoxy (which would never hold up). However, that still isn't quite the same application.
Your test is a great idea! I'm gonna try it. Even if the appearance of black pins suck, I like your test idea. I'll probably do a heat test too (where brass is sure to win).
Steve
- Joined
- Nov 27, 1999
- Messages
- 3,745
Man this has been a tough issue. I would like to add after telling you that I do not peen them on glued handles that I also have a lot of respect for Max and his knives. I've seen things that he pulled out of the forge and swiped a few times with a file that far outdistance knives that I work on for days.
I still feel that it is not necessary on light duty knives but you also can't go wrong following Max's recommendations!
I still feel that it is not necessary on light duty knives but you also can't go wrong following Max's recommendations!
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2000
- Messages
- 643
Peter, I couldn't help but notice your sig line. If you'll send me your email address I think I can whup your ugly knife entry. I just finished it today and it's a real winner in the ugly category. My emial address is: mburnett@csenet.com
On the other hand, it may be the most beautiful knife I've ever made. It sure feels good in my hand. You be the judge and feel free to post a pic of it here. I'm just a basic member and can't post pics. Win or lose, I just love a good challenge.
On the other hand, it may be the most beautiful knife I've ever made. It sure feels good in my hand. You be the judge and feel free to post a pic of it here. I'm just a basic member and can't post pics. Win or lose, I just love a good challenge.