Perfect meat steel - need advice

[Kentucky]

The big problem I can see in my future is grinding, I grind my fillet knives after heat treating, I can see this being a problem with 10v and s90v

Oh yea, Ive seen Butch mention many times over the years on here what hardened 10v does to belts. Ive heard people say that a brand new 120 grit belt will last about 2-3 passes before its pretty much gone.

 

[tiguy7]

I recommend Stellite 6-K, Stellite 6-BH (Talonite), and Stellite 6-B in that order. Not steel, but there must be some reason they put it on the edge of bulldozer blades and the teeth of steam shovel buckets. CPM S-125-V doesn't suck, but it's harder to sharpen.

 

[JTknives]

i would make something using 1/16"stock with a full flat grind, 2" height at the heel, 8" blade length, and very hard. so, unless you want to break the bank, O1 or 1.2519 tempered to Rc64. Grind so you are 0.005" at the edge, 0.015" 1/4" up, 0.25 1/2" up.

I basically already made that knife out of A2. Crazy thin edge and a full flat grind. For slicing and chopping it's amazing but kinda the wrong shape for my needs if butchering up the quarters. Here is some pictures to show what is needed to be done.

I hang our meat for 2 weeks in a cooler so it can dry age. After this the meat has a dry tough rind of sorts on the out side as well as mild mold some times so this rind gets removed. But befor doing that you trim off all the hard fat that has also dryer. The buck this year has very thick fat, much more then last years. In this pic you can see the 4 knives I decided to test. All had the 1200 grit diamond edge so I figured I would see how thy preform. the knives from left to right are as fallows. 1. Mini fillet knife made from A2 (my wife's favort chicken/meat knife), 2.spiderco farad K2 in 10v, 3. Old German butcher knife (guessing 1095 or somthing simaler), and last is a D2 puukko I made as a test with a full flat grind and .005 thick edge.

As you can see I don't just hack chunks off, I fallow the muscle groups and remove them in full sections.

As you can see you need a thin blade that's not super wide so you can get down and around areas.

After all is said and done this is what I'm left with. Very little contact with bone except when I gently slice it off the femora bone. A narrow blade helps get everything out of the nooks in the pelvis bone.

So being that my wife snapped up the fillet knife befor we even started I tested the others. My first choice was my go to blade I have ALLWAYS used which is the German butcher knife. What it lacks in narrowness it makes up for in having that real drawn out point. It's actually quite useful in getting around things. But in playing with all these blade one quickly rose to the surface and never left my hand. It was the D2 puukko, it wasn't that it was the best shape or the thinnest blade, it was a combination of the universal direction handle and how crazy that steel cut meat. Even the hard fat and rind. What's amazing is like I said befor I tryied this exact same puukko on the previous hind quarter when it had a polished edge and I quickly abandoned it. But this time I was not letting it go, made the process very effortless. So that's what brought me to this point of wanting to really max out its performance. Go thinner on the spine at around 1/6-5/32 thickness (not the .160 spine on the puukko), make the blade just a tad bit narrower and with less belly and more of a fillet knife shape and then gently arc the blade back just a touch so the spine is not straight. Then last but not least find a steal that would really shine in this profile and preform to its max level.

Sorry for running on and on but normally I don't geak out this much on the very fine details of blade making. Being a knife that will spend a lot of time in my hands as well as future customers I'm after optimum performance.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Silica in meat (higher% in connecting tissues) and of course higher in hide/skin would slowly flatten/dull the edge. Micro-serration edge(coarse edge finished) would cut/rip/saw meat for a long time before need sharpening. So blade in simple steels with high matrix hardness would work well in meat cutting. However larger/coarser edge would ripped more blood capillaries (i.e. bruise layer) so cut-surface doesn't look clean and probably spoil faster.

OK then, why not use a mid-level finished grit edge (sub 5um serration). This improve cut quality but dull faster just because tooth is shorter.

Sub-micron edge (toward razor keenness) - super clean cut quality but quite fast to loose ability to sever connecting tissues (fiber bundle like).

Take incidental bone contact into consideration. Now toughness is a requirement.

Having painted whatifs above. IMO - 10V with a 3um edge finished combine with its 2-5um carbide dia (~24-26% carbide volume) would be a great long lasting meat processing knife. For low cv steels, I would pick 66rc W2/1095 class of steel with ~6-10um edge finished.

**
Todd - if video below looks like a self promotion, LMK - I will remove ** block. Recently I worked on over 30 blades & a couple dozen coupons in 10V.

10V 67rc whittle raw pork rib bone and light chop hardwood
http://youtu.be/8pZmOrTbReQ
**

 

[JTknives]

Silica in meat (higher% in connecting tissues) and of course higher in hide/skin would slowly flatten/dull the edge. Micro-serration edge(coarse edge finished) would cut/rip/saw meat for a long time before need sharpening. So blade in simple steels with high matrix hardness would work well in meat cutting. However larger/coarser edge would ripped more blood capillaries (i.e. bruise layer) so cut-surface doesn't look clean and probably spoil faster.

OK then, why not use a mid-level finished grit edge (sub 5um serration). This improve cut quality but dull faster just because tooth is shorter.

Sub-micron edge (toward razor keenness) - super clean cut quality but quite fast to loose ability to sever connecting tissues (fiber bundle like).

Take incidental bone contact into consideration. Now toughness is a requirement.

Having painted whatifs above. IMO - 10V with a 3um edge finished combine with its 2-5um carbide dia (~24-26% carbide volume) would be a great long lasting meat processing knife. For low cv steels, I would pick 66rc W2/1095 class of steel with ~6-10um edge finished.

**
Todd - if video below looks like a self promotion, LMK - I will remove ** block. Recently I worked on over 30 blades & a couple dozen coupons in 10V.

10V 67rc whittle raw pork rib bone and light chop hardwood
http://youtu.be/8pZmOrTbReQ
**

Ok my man color me impressed, I'm sold on 10v. Loved the video especaly you carving the pork rip. I think 10V has a stigmatism that if it touches a bone if will chip. I actually heard some one say to treat it like a ceremic blade.
Did you really say that blade was 67rc

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Yes, knife in video is 10V at 67rc.

Knife #4 since regrinded to crazy thin FFG http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1441735-CPM-10V-Knives

Ok my man color me impressed, I'm sold on 10v. Loved the video especaly you carving the pork rip. I think 10V has a stigmatism that if it touches a bone if will chip. I actually heard some one say to treat it like a ceremic blade.
Did you really say that blade was 67rc

 

[Salem Straub]

I like the edge stability of carbon steel... the high-tech PM options will hold an edge forever, but SUCK to work with IME.
If you want a forgeable steel that's easy to sharpen, stable at thin, and takes a nasty edge with a 1200 stone or so, I recommend CruForgeV.

 

[JTknives]

I like the edge stability of carbon steel... the high-tech PM options will hold an edge forever, but SUCK to work with IME.
If you want a forgeable steel that's easy to sharpen, stable at thin, and takes a nasty edge with a 1200 stone or so, I recommend CruForgeV.

I still have that CruForgeV bar I got from you. It's sitting right next to a matching bar of 316 stainless

 

[butcher_block]

wife has a cpm125v 4 inch folder of mine at 64 RC she about fell over when i took a stick and banged it through the cartlige of her bucks rib cage so she coudl get the rest of the field dressing done.
if you keep a DMT1200 by the work station liek we do XHP is great 2-3 swipes per side once and a while and the deer is done i use a 13 inch slicer wife goes at her parts with a 3 inch "kitchen scalpel"
10v is fun if looking for a SS option have a look at CAR-TEC 204P i have been toting a folder in it for some time and it works as well as my M4 blade but didnt get rust on it over the summer in my pocket or from gardening

 

[Andy Lewis]

A few years ago my pal Darrin Sanders passed along a HT/ground CPM-10V blade. It's nice and thin at about 0.025" at 0.125" back from edge and 0.012" at the shoulder itself. The edge is about 30° inclusive sharpened on a 1200 DMT plate and stropped on 3um diamond paste on leather.

It is hands down the best combo of edge holding and efficient aggressive cutting ability of any blade I have ever personally used. Once you get it set up right, it just goes and goes. It's just mean! Was also surprised at how tough it is at that high hardness. Even on hard contact, it just kind of blunts instead of rolling or chipping out. No reason to drop it into the low 60s as I see it. But it will make you pay.

This one has built a slight gray stain but is fairly corrosion resistant if I keep it clean and polished.

Phil Wilson has a good review on his website that matches my experience.

Just forget about that mirror finish JT!

 

[Darrin Sanders]

The big problem I can see in my future is grinding, I grind my fillet knives after heat treating, I can see this being a problem with 10v and s90v

I grind thin blades in hardened high V steels all the time. Its not hard, its just different. Don't get me wrong, there is a bit of a learning curve but if I can do it anybody can. Just remember that ceramic belts are a MUST. Anything else is just a waste of time and belts, in my experience. Also, when a belt stops cutting and starts building heat, that's it, its done, and will only cause trouble thereafter. The old caveat of using belts like they're free holds especially true when grinding high V steels.

 

[Darrin Sanders]

A few years ago my pal Darrin Sanders passed along a HT/ground CPM-10V blade. It's nice and thin at about 0.025" at 0.125" back from edge and 0.012" at the shoulder itself. The edge is about 30° inclusive sharpened on a 1200 DMT plate and stropped on 3um diamond paste on leather.

It is hands down the best combo of edge holding and efficient aggressive cutting ability of any blade I have ever personally used. Once you get it set up right, it just goes and goes. It's just mean! Was also surprised at how tough it is at that high hardness. Even on hard contact, it just kind of blunts instead of rolling or chipping out. No reason to drop it into the low 60s as I see it. But it will make you pay.

This one has built a slight gray stain but is fairly corrosion resistant if I keep it clean and polished.

Phil Wilson has a good review on his website that matches my experience.

Just forget about that mirror finish JT!

Glad you're happy with the performance Andy. Before I tested 10V I always heard that is was chippy too but I'm hard headed so I decided to test it for myself and was happily surprised at the results. Is it the toughest steel around? No but it is far from fragile. In my experience, toughness is overrated in anything other than actual choppers, cleavers, etc.. I mean, as long as the edge holds up under actual uses it was designed for then its tough enough, right?

Like Andy said, don't be afraid to try different geometries & edge finishes until you find what works best for YOUR uses.

 

[Willie71]

This is good information on the edges. It sounds like the edge I use on the steak knives I make. Just under 0.010", 0.007-0.008" at the edge, 1200g stone, then leather strop.

 

[Kentucky]

I always referred to that kind of edge as "Sticky sharp"..It just wants to grab and cut, just touching your thumb will draw blood were as a sharp but polished edge can slide across without cutting if enough pressure is not applied.

 

[JTknives]

What grit do you take 10v up to?

 

[Darrin Sanders]

I usually stop at 220X because that is the finest flexible ceramic belt I've been able to find. I've asked several company reps about higher grit flexible ceramic belts and they say it can't be done. They make higher grits in stiff belts but I can't get the plunges clean and hand sanding 10V is..........I wont even go there. LOL

I finish them with black magic on a Sisal wheel and it give a nice even satin finish.

 

[JTknives]

This stuff?
https://trugrit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=47_50&products_id=4419

What grit is that compound?

 

[Darrin Sanders]

Yep, not sure about the grit size but I like the finish it gives.

 

[Andy Lewis]

Here's some closeup shots of the CPM-10V blade Darrin finished as above (220 ceramic followed by black magic compound on a rough sisal wheel). Obviously a big part of the quality is knowing what to do with a grinder in the first place.

It has picked up some persistent staining over a few years but is slick enough as to be easy to keep clean. Hand sanding 10V is not a realistic option (I have stories...) so this has been a great user finish in my opinion.

 

[Alfazulu]

Go with CPM 10V. I can't recommend it enough. I may be a newbie knife maker, but I'm not new to knives. CPM 10V holds a hair-popping sharp edge like nothing else I've tried. In my use, nothing else even comes close. The one 10V blade I have is a homemade one that I got Peters to harden to 64 Hrc. I could not be more impressed with it. I am going to make a set of kitchen knives for myself with 10V. It will be the ultimate kitchen knife or meat cutting steel in my opinion, as long as you don't care about it rusting. I also found that it holds a mirror polished edge well. I was expecting to have to use a toothy edge with it, but I haven't had to do that.

The ONLY thing that has dulled the edge on my knife is hitting metal. I was prying a plug out of a hole saw with it and hit the steel saw with the edge (twice). That left either a couple of tiny chips or folds (likely chips). Same happened while cutting some plastic wrap that was holding together a bundle of steel. I hit it pretty hard and dinged the tip. Other than those things, I chopped several small trees down, cut tons of boxes, tape, carpet, chopped through a 1x1" piece of poplar, chopped through a 2x4", and cut lots of other stuff. I carried it daily as my only knife for a month, so it saw lots of use. After all of that, the only spots on the edge that had lost ANY discernible sharpness were the three spots that hit steel. Since meat lacks steel, you should be good!

Edit: Come to think of it, I keep wanting to try other steels, but keep going back to 10V. I don't see why I would want to use other steels as long as I'm ok with the abrasives is going to eat. I really don't abuse knives by prying or chopping, so toughness isn't a huge deal. I really feel like from now on, if I make a blade for me, it will be 10V. If I'm making it for others, not so much. It will chip relatively easy when hitting metal, and it will rust like crazy, but I love it. About the rust, when I would flip my blade over to grind the other side, the side that I wasn't grinding was already rusting. It kept doing that. After about 2-3 minutes of sitting wet it started rusting. It definitely needs oiling.