PERFORMANCE DISCUSSION..your experience is needed.

THe reason the 1311 doesnt look as impressive in this video is because its chopping a zombie tree (dead standing timber).:thumbup:

A live tree would have died and fallen over within the same time frame;):D
[video=youtube;i5VhmbvWcnE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5VhmbvWcnE [/video]
 
I´m slowly planning the purchase of a Battle Mistress, waiting for the right one to come out, since I consider miself a collector, I choose carefully my pieces, but I´d like to bring a discussion to the options this time.

The applications of the knife will be in this order:

1. General Camping purpose. Cuting rope, fabric, food processing, carefull prying (I have to admit I do it) etc.
2. Brush clearing, clearing branches off the path.
3. Wood Processing.

Therefore I´ll need a long knife, but I dont know what differences in performance would be in lenght, thicknes, etc. I have used machetes extensively, so I know what I need in that field, but I cant comment on a 1/4 in thick-10inch-NOT-FLEXIBLE blade.

I have never owned or used a battle mistress, I dont know if there is any difference in performance between a CGFBM, and FFBM or a variant, I have seen the MOAB performing and I believe it´s a dream!!!...but I can´t afford it. I´ve never tryed the 1311 at work, but I´ve seen a few videos on youtube and I wasn´t impressed to be honest, but I saw one or two videos of the rat waki and they were jaw droping (a total awakening for me)...

I do need your comments...thanks

I recently had to cut down a tree that fell after a storm, about 20' tall. Not huge, but it helped test my Bushwacker Mistress.
I think that there is such a thing as too heavy, or too thick. My Bushwacker Mistress was ideal for the job, I would not have wanted to use a heaveir knife and I'm 33 years old in good general shape. In the magic world of internet where anyone can be the strongest man in the planet and claim they use their half an inch thick knife all day long without ever growing tired. You'll hear all sorts of things, but yes, for working long periods of time, a fat Busse will be too much. The Bushwacker is as far as I would push it, and its already twice as thick as any machete you'll come across. I would have no issues with batoning, choping and prying with it if I have to.
FerFAL
 
I recently had to cut down a tree that fell after a storm, about 20' tall. Not huge, but it helped test my Bushwacker Mistress.
I think that there is such a thing as too heavy, or too thick. My Bushwacker Mistress was ideal for the job, I would not have wanted to use a heaveir knife and I'm 33 years old in good general shape. In the magic world of internet where anyone can be the strongest man in the planet and claim they use their half an inch thick knife all day long without ever growing tired. You'll hear all sorts of things, but yes, for working long periods of time, a fat Busse will be too much. The Bushwacker is as far as I would push it, and its already twice as thick as any machete you'll come across. I would have no issues with batoning, choping and prying with it if I have to.
FerFAL

TRUE words, well said.
As much I loved my CGFBM as a mean knife it is just too heavy for practical purposes, IMHO.
Maybe, ifI would chop everyday, I would "grow" to the blade, but I came to a conclusion, that the heaviest what I want to go is the BWM LE.
I would consider the BWM, the B11, and the B10, too.
 
I"ll save you some time and money. Get a NMFBM You will never look back
 
There are several issues with the videos you posted that have to be considered before taking them at face value.
1st - ak47/wakizashi/sword. There's a few things you don't get to see well from that video such as how long it actually takes him to get that tree down, the shock type to the hands, and the fatigue rate. Because there's a cut/edit in the video, he may have had to rest because he was too fatigued to do it in one shot. He was baseball batting that tree with a lot of energy to get the kind of penetration he was getting. Fun, but not efficient and not a good idea if you are ever going to use it in a situation where you *need* that wood. Efficiency and safety are paramount to survival. Swords are inefficient and uncomfortable to chop with. You should never 'push' into the wood your chopping like you see in that video - all of the momentum on a long handled edged object should be in a pendulum type like you get with an axe, or it should be one handed. Pushing sword style is mostly wasted energy because you can't push cut through wood fibers - all the energy of the forward grip hand goes into pushing against the tree, not through it. If you choose to baseball bat it like you wood with an axe your not being efficient because your center of percussion is halfway down the blade, not at the tip where the weight would best be utilized for maximum rotational force delivery. Since it's not efficient to use it two handed, you could use it one handed but it's awkward and uncomfortable - all the way at the bottom of the handle and you run into a lot of shock vibration and inefficiency from striking at the center of the blade. All the way choked up and you've got an awkward portion of handle that strikes the wrist/forearm and you've got a ton of useless weight behind your hand that doesn't help you cut wood.

2nd - 18" ak. I'll only say that I've owned several 18" ang khola's with edges that were half as thin as any of the battle mistresses I've owned, and they are partial tangs (or tapered if they are exposed). The result is something thats more blade heavy with less handle weight and with a more efficient cutting geometry. It's not entirely accurate to assume that an 18" ak is going to directly translate it's performance to a busse equivelant.

3rd - 1311. There's two things wrong with that video as far as assuming it represents the performance of the 1311. One is what KnifeHunter said - it's dead standing wood that may be exceptionally hard. The other thing is the terrible chopping form that guy is using. He strikes the same place multiple times. You can't remove any wood by hitting the same line twice, you just make the cut slightly deeper. Repeat that 10 times and your not only going to make the blade look like it's a poor performer - your going to be exhausted and have accomplished next to nothing. If your dealing with extremely hard wood, make your chip size smaller - but for the sake of your arm and hand *make chips* by cutting v patterns.


I've owned a bme, ffbm, fbmle, hogfsh, hh, ak47, ttkz, Custom shopped ttkz, kz2, Custom shopped kz2 b9, b10 choiless, b11, moab, nmfbm, battle rat, dog father, and 30+ Himalayan imports khukuries/swords. Within the busse family (excluding the axes/hatchets) the 1311 is the single most blade heavy balance I've experienced. It combines that balance with a relatively thin edge (as far as the overbuilt edges bussekins tend to have) a 13" blade and a 3/16" stock to create the best chopper they've made to date. Yes the TTKZ and MOAB will bite deeper because they are significantly heavier - but they are just that, heavy. What marginal gain you get in penetration you lose in greatly increased fatigue rates. Balance is often everything in a knife, and I've held a few busse's that were superbly balanced. The ones that have always stood out to me as being *perfect* were the b9, HOGFSH and 1311. The 1311 is the only bussekin chopper I now own because of every knife that has ever been produced by the three companies (and I've tried nearly all of them) it stands above them all as a complete package heavy chopper. (and because I'm poorer than ever and can have only one.)
 
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THe reason the 1311 doesnt look as impressive in this video is because its chopping a zombie tree (dead standing timber).:thumbup:

A live tree would have died and fallen over within the same time frame;):D

"Good God"...it didn´t look as threatening as they look in the movies...
 
There are several issues with the videos you posted that have to be considered before taking them at face value.
1st - ak47/wakizashi/sword. There's a few things you don't get to see well from that video such as how long it actually takes him to get that tree down, the shock type to the hands, and the fatigue rate. Because there's a cut/edit in the video, he may have had to rest because he was too fatigued to do it in one shot. He was baseball batting that tree with a lot of energy to get the kind of penetration he was getting. Fun, but not efficient and not a good idea if you are ever going to use it in a situation where you *need* that wood. Efficiency and safety are paramount to survival. Swords are inefficient and uncomfortable to chop with. You should never 'push' into the wood your chopping like you see in that video - all of the momentum on a long handled edged object should be in a pendulum type like you get with an axe, or it should be one handed. Pushing sword style is mostly wasted energy because you can't push cut through wood fibers - all the energy of the forward grip hand goes into pushing against the tree, not through it. If you choose to baseball bat it like you wood with an axe your not being efficient because your center of percussion is halfway down the blade, not at the tip where the weight would best be utilized for maximum rotational force delivery. Since it's not efficient to use it two handed, you could use it one handed but it's awkward and uncomfortable - all the way at the bottom of the handle and you run into a lot of shock vibration and inefficiency from striking at the center of the blade. All the way choked up and you've got an awkward portion of handle that strikes the wrist/forearm and you've got a ton of useless weight behind your hand that doesn't help you cut wood.

2nd - 18" ak. I'll only say that I've owned several 18" ang khola's with edges that were half as thin as any of the battle mistresses I've owned, and they are partial tangs (or tapered if they are exposed). The result is something thats more blade heavy with less handle weight and with a more efficient cutting geometry. It's not entirely accurate to assume that an 18" ak is going to directly translate it's performance to a busse equivelant.

3rd - 1311. There's two things wrong with that video as far as assuming it represents the performance of the 1311. One is what KnifeHunter said - it's dead standing wood that may be exceptionally hard. The other thing is the terrible chopping form that guy is using. He strikes the same place multiple times. You can't remove any wood by hitting the same line twice, you just make the cut slightly deeper. Repeat that 10 times and your not only going to make the blade look like it's a poor performer - your going to be exhausted and have accomplished next to nothing. If your dealing with extremely hard wood, make your chip size smaller - but for the sake of your arm and hand *make chips* by cutting v patterns.


I've owned a bme, ffbm, fbmle, hogfsh, hh, ak47, ttkz, Custom shopped ttkz, kz2, Custom shopped kz2 b9, b10 choiless, b11, moab, nmfbm, battle rat, dog father, and 30+ Himalayan imports khukuries/swords. Within the busse family (excluding the axes/hatchets) the 1311 is the single most blade heavy balance I've experienced. It combines that balance with a relatively thin edge (as far as the overbuilt edges bussekins tend to have) a 13" blade and a 3/16" stock to create the best chopper they've made to date. Yes the TTKZ and MOAB will bite deeper because they are significantly heavier - but they are just that, heavy. What marginal gain you get in penetration you lose in greatly increased fatigue rates. Balance is often everything in a knife, and I've held a few busse's that were superbly balanced. The ones that have always stood out to me as being *perfect* were the b9, HOGFSH and 1311. The 1311 is the only bussekin chopper I now own because of every knife that has ever been produced by the three companies (and I've tried nearly all of them) it stands above them all as a complete package heavy chopper. (and because I'm poorer than ever and can have only one.)


Yep, what he said. :thumbup:
 
ikkyo, FerFAL, That´s the kind of advice I needed, conclusions through experiences... Thanks a bunch guys...seriously.

Last Visible Canary,

About your f1st: You are right about the video editing, I noticed that before... but I was surprised of how big of a chunk of wood that guy can take of that tree at the beginning.

About the momentum, the placement of the edge against the tree, center of oscillation and other things you mentioned, I completely agree with you...it´s irrefutable the efficiency of a tip weighted tool on cutting due to the rotational velocity of the furthermost point of the tool (the tip of the sword).

It is actually a very good thing you brought that up, because, that situation should not be different on a 1311, since it is actually just a little bit wider than the sword, BUT, I brought the sword to the game because tree chopping, or at least thick tree chopping is not a significant part of jungle traversing/survival or whatever you want to call it… My reasoning was this: a pendulum motion with a long cutting tool -as the one mentioned before- is somehow extenuating on the forearm-elbow-shoulder, because when you clear bushes (most of the time in jungle situations), you have to put the tool in motion, but also, most of the time YOU HAVE TO STOP IT, because branches are not going to do it, as a tree does. A sword being more balanced towards the ricasso, due to the long handle, will release most of the tension you have to put on the forearm to stop the swinging motion yourself. -again, I have used a lot of machetes in jungle situations, for very long jurneys but I have never held a sword in my hand-

About your 2nd...right again, but nobody is assuming that one blade´s performance is comparable with the other (ak vs BM)...I posted the videos just as reference because I talked about them before...the discussion is about which busse&kin is better all rounder for jungle work...or which combination of them. Not discussing Himalayan Imports here.

About your 3rd...Good point...I guess we need more videos about the 1311...as we stated previously...

About Your conclussion:
Besides your un-doubtful experience with Busse...you line of thought is pristine...BUDDY, SERIOUSLY...thanks for summing up what´s being said and landing it on a Busse experience...

One thing really surprised me, and it was to find among your preferred knives the HOGFSH, being such a heavy-knife...I believe the NMFSH would be an equivalent since it´s a bit longer and a bit thinner...If I had the drawings I could run a computer model simulation...but I don’t... (I do have the drawings for some small busses and the almighty MOAB Though LOL…I´ll keep you posted.
 
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Lol, I almost posted something similar to LVC's, but thought better of it, glad I did, because I couldn't have said it any better ( probably quite a bit worse actually) than he did. If I have time, I may shoot a video of a waki, skizzy, Zilla, 1311 and a HI kuk chopping 2x4s
 
Lol, I almost posted something similar to LVC's, but thought better of it, glad I did, because I couldn't have said it any better ( probably quite a bit worse actually) than he did. If I have time, I may shoot a video of a waki, skizzy, Zilla, 1311 and a HI kuk chopping 2x4s

I hope you can make your best effort to shoot the video...I´d be much thankfull. a thorough test is much needed.
 
My 1311, while heavier than my machetes is a great balance between chopping power and clearing capability. Better still for a "do it all" blade is my B11. It's shorter so won't have the reach but the thickness makes it great for wood processing and it's nimble so it won't wear you out. PLUS it's INFI and res-c... A hard combo to beat. Just my .02
 
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It is actually a very good thing you brought that up, because, that situation should not be different on a 1311, since it is actually just a little bit wider than the sword, BUT, I brought the sword to the game because tree chopping, or at least thick tree chopping is not a significant part of jungle traversing/survival or whatever you want to call it… My reasoning was this: a pendulum motion with a long cutting tool -as the one mentioned before- is somehow extenuating on the forearm-elbow-shoulder, because when you clear bushes (most of the time in jungle situations), you have to put the tool in motion, but also, most of the time YOU HAVE TO STOP IT, because branches are not going to do it, as a tree does. A sword being more balanced towards the ricasso, due to the long handle, will release most of the tension you have to put on the forearm to stop the swinging motion yourself. -again, I have used a lot of machetes in jungle situations, for very long jurneys but I have never held a sword in my hand-

Where the sword acts like a staff with an edge, the 1311 acts like a cleaver. The bulk of the weight of a sword is distributed at a distance on either end of the center of percussion, and with a busse it's invariably mostly in the handle, where the bulk of the weight of the 1311 is in the blade near the center of percussion. It's difficult to come up with a good example to explain the affect without going towards hyperbole. I could say 'it's like hitting a tree with a 3 foot metal pole vs. hitting it with a 10" hammer', but thats a bit extreme.

swords are a trade off as far as being able to stop them in motion. I can't stress enough how akward that long handle is when using it as a machete. If your way down at the pommel you have a super long super heavy machete that brutal on the forearm when trying to stop it's momentum, and if your choked up at the talon hole the back of the handle wants to be where your forearm is in order to turn in your hand as a normal machete would, often extending your hand in uncomfortable and possibly injurious ways. They do have their uses such as the cold steel long handled heavy machetes, but most of that use is for getting at medium thickness branches at a long distance where you need an axe type handle motion but a longer edge, not for general brush clearing. If your going to do a lot of above head branch clearing I might suggest the sword, but for at ground level work where you need a full horizontal swing with one hand, a single handed machete is going to be better for your hand and forearm.

I'd never choose the HOGFSH over something like the basic 9, 10 or 13 simply because of practicality but the balance was amazing in the hand. It was blade heavy but excessive, it was heavy but not enormous. It's like a truck that gets everything right, great handling, traction, torque, ride, look, etc.... but gets poor gas mileage. Eventually if your finances get hard up enough you'll sell it for something that's more efficient, but that truck will always stand out as being perfection in your mind.
 
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monk3yfist...Brother that is a lot more than what I expected...and That´s what I meant about experience...I never took the time to evaluate steel/design/availability, combinations...but who does in one go?...I didn´t have in mind the B11 was infi...now I have a new "drooling about" knife. THANKS.

Last Visible Canary...Once again thanks...as I said, I never ever held a sword in my hands so I do not know anything about how it would move...nor I have never ever entered a product design process that would deviate those doubts, needless to say, you experience will be a cornerstone for my desition from now on...I cant strive on thanking you enough.

...I forgot to mention...yes, budget efficiency is an issue for most of us...:thumbup:

Representative analogy about the HOGFSH, I was waiting for owning that knife for a long time, with no luck...I managed to pamper me with a couple NMFSHs though...But I know I´ll get me one HOG as my sidekick. Most guys around me have gone for the Extrema Ratio, I´ve been saving miself for a Busse. but you´ll have to agree that monk3yfist has a point...resiprene+INFI in an 11in...is a hard to beat combination bro...
 
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I hope you can make your best effort to shoot the video...I´d be much thankfull. a thorough test is much needed.

Getting it together, probably be a few days, need to build a sturdy stand to chop on. Got all the participants sharpened up though

b665147bb2462bc5785374f1fa6efde4.jpg
 
Getting it together, probably be a few days, need to build a sturdy stand to chop on. Got all the participants sharpened up though

Jroden5446 has all the toys... Brother...If you are serious about the video, and you cant´do it in less than two weeks, I´d be happy to give you one or two Colombian Machetes to fill up the line up...the bolo is not the best jungle machete in my opinion... (obviously not talking about high end custom ones;))

In fact...who fancies a pass around comparo between the traditional Colombian Machete and whatever Jungle-bush-chopper you want?...I´ll bring the machetes!!!
 
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