I was handling by shobu zukiri raptor katana and thinking about how robust and strong it was. It has some pretty heavy duty dimensions 13" grip, 30" blade , 7.6mm thick and 2lbs 11oz weight. I was wondering if period swords had similar dimensions or if they were generally smaller and of slighter build. Also in terms of strength and cutting ability were they similar or are modern swords so much more capable. I would assume modern swords are superior but how much more?
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Period swords and modern swords
- Thread starter Nternal
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Triton
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A few philisophical thoughts if you will indulge me...
Swords do not have any particular cutting ability, the user of the sword does.
A robust sword is not always the best sword. If it was all swords would have dimensions like sharpened crowbars. A sword instead is defined by things like blade geometry, balance, edge retention, heat treat etc.
It is hard to make general statements about swords as a whole, we only have a fraction of surviving originals of those produced and many of those are not in the form that they were when produced. It's what happens when you've been around for a few hundred years after all.
Are modern steels superior to ancient steels? Yes, or at least they are certainly more homogenous, heat treat is more uniform etc. Are they superior? For what? Cutting wara mats? Maybe. Going into battle with? Hard to tell since no one is going into battle with them.
In short I think we have to get beyond "is this cheap production katana better than the swords of the samurai" and look at larger questions.
Just my take, your mileage may vary.
Swords do not have any particular cutting ability, the user of the sword does.
A robust sword is not always the best sword. If it was all swords would have dimensions like sharpened crowbars. A sword instead is defined by things like blade geometry, balance, edge retention, heat treat etc.
It is hard to make general statements about swords as a whole, we only have a fraction of surviving originals of those produced and many of those are not in the form that they were when produced. It's what happens when you've been around for a few hundred years after all.
Are modern steels superior to ancient steels? Yes, or at least they are certainly more homogenous, heat treat is more uniform etc. Are they superior? For what? Cutting wara mats? Maybe. Going into battle with? Hard to tell since no one is going into battle with them.
In short I think we have to get beyond "is this cheap production katana better than the swords of the samurai" and look at larger questions.
Just my take, your mileage may vary.
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There's a pretty wide range of quality evident in both period and modern swords. A true antique katana can have truly legendary cutting properties. Some of those craftsman were true artists who had mastered a craft that had been passed down through many generations. I often feel that a lot has been lost. Sure, we've got power tools and digitally controlled forges and heat treat ovens and more precisely controlled steels with specifically designed metallurgy. But there's a quality to some of those truly exceptional antiques that is generally unrivalled by most modern swords. I mean, you think about it, there are swords out there from master smiths who only built a handful of swords in their entire lives, because they spent years crafting each one. For that reason, I'm hesitant to make judgments about whether period swords are worse/better than modern ones.
The few antiques that I've seen weren't terribly thick like some. Katanas in particular were notorious for not being tough as much as great cutters, from what I've read. I'm definitely NOT an expert on katanas though.
The few antiques that I've seen weren't terribly thick like some. Katanas in particular were notorious for not being tough as much as great cutters, from what I've read. I'm definitely NOT an expert on katanas though.
Meh, I never said a robust sword is a better sword nor was the cutting ability question asked in the way you took it. Nor was I ignoring blade geometry,balance, edge retention or heat treat. I think my question was a pretty simple one if you don't have a solid thing to add perhaps stay clear of the thread? Also, if you have these larger questions why not go make another thread to ask them?
Ah I see, I understand what you are saying and perhaps you are right. I think though that us focusing on the whole sword smith hand-made thing is perhaps a little more drinking the mystical Japanese Kool-aid than talking about a piece of steel .No disrespect to anyone but I am just saying that perhaps some people exaggerate that a little bit.
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Antique swords are a lot like vintage guitars in some respects. The ones we have today in usable shape were either exceptional examples that remained in use because they were both durable and superior to other available choices or they are still around because they were taken out of regular use and stored or displayed somewhere. It's hard to say how representative they are of the general stock because most of the inferior products from the past will have broken or been disposed of or repurposed.
It's not all that different from what we see today. The best (or most expensive and ornate) blades get passed down and cared for and the rest get used up or neglected.
It's not all that different from what we see today. The best (or most expensive and ornate) blades get passed down and cared for and the rest get used up or neglected.
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What's really lacking is both the practical real-world NEED for well made swords and very limited competition driven by those needs. When people at large aren't actually using swords in life-or-death circumstances against opponents that are similarly armed and whatnot then both the customers and the craftsmen are going to be less informed on the necessary specifications for such a weapon, and the market for such items will be small, which means the incentives of improving quality and performance is comparably limited due to low levels of competition. So to my mind it actually makes perfect sense that swords today are not as fine as those of years past in spite of superior materials and methods. The knowledge that serves as the foundation for good design is quite simply lacking, and the market conditions inappropriate and insufficient to create sufficient demand.
I understand but How much more time and how much more attention needs to be applied to something with so much better materials? I just mean look at some of the katanas made now days made out of 9260 spring steel like the Cheness Tenchi or even the lesser quality cold steel swords.Would a samurai really need better made swords then this? I just don't see how something could be so much more superior than this .
[video=youtube;kHsfGWkO7SM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsfGWkO7SM[/video]
[video=youtube;u3nAuowwqhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nAuowwqhI[/video]
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You misunderstand me. The build quality and materials may be phenomenal, but the dimensions, balance, geometry, harmonics, and handling characteristics are not as good. In this case it's not a problem of quality in terms of materials or workmanship--it's about the form. It doesn't matter how well you build it if you make it handle like a brick.
You misunderstand me. The build quality and materials may be phenomenal, but the dimensions, balance, geometry, harmonics, and handling characteristics are not as good. In this case it's not a problem of quality in terms of materials or workmanship--it's about the form. It doesn't matter how well you build it if you make it handle like a brick.
I see, doesn't somebody have exact measurements and weights,etc that can be used to make one handle just as well?
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"Handle just as well" might be the real problem. Like mentioned, there aren't many "real" swordsmen to ask. Maybe the length and weight are also based on the user, not all knives fit everyone's hands.
Like guitars, there is no best, some like a fat neck, others want a smaller radius, there is no right or wrong.
I've messed around with bokken, but I don't fight with them. Sparring might give some insight, but a true life or death battle would reveal how well a sword handles, cuts, and how tough it really is.
One show I saw on the Katana, showed how 60 different craftsmen were involved in a complete katana. I imagine that is the only way to have the "best" of every component of the whole. Seems like today, the sword smiths make every component themselves. In the past there was more of an industry for swords and other weapons, just like with today's guns.
If we actually used swords in modern wars, the input on how to improve those swords would still be somewhat bias. Our soldiers are taller than the ancient Samurai, we have different armor, and we have fiberglass, plastics, polymers, rubber, and plenty of other materials to use for the handles, sheaths, etc..
I'm by no means an expert, in anything. I just know that swords have evolved to keep up with the times. Maybe the perfect sword is only fleeting and decided upon by each battle?
Like guitars, there is no best, some like a fat neck, others want a smaller radius, there is no right or wrong.
I've messed around with bokken, but I don't fight with them. Sparring might give some insight, but a true life or death battle would reveal how well a sword handles, cuts, and how tough it really is.
One show I saw on the Katana, showed how 60 different craftsmen were involved in a complete katana. I imagine that is the only way to have the "best" of every component of the whole. Seems like today, the sword smiths make every component themselves. In the past there was more of an industry for swords and other weapons, just like with today's guns.
If we actually used swords in modern wars, the input on how to improve those swords would still be somewhat bias. Our soldiers are taller than the ancient Samurai, we have different armor, and we have fiberglass, plastics, polymers, rubber, and plenty of other materials to use for the handles, sheaths, etc..
I'm by no means an expert, in anything. I just know that swords have evolved to keep up with the times. Maybe the perfect sword is only fleeting and decided upon by each battle?
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Essentially! The best sword is the one designed for the circumstances of its era. While technology was a limitation, distinct sword patterns of a time period generally represent the design paradigm that produced characteristics most favorable for the combat of the day, whether civilian defensive items or weapons for the battlefield. It's a two-way street, though--tactics inform design, and design influences tactics. Back in the day the design of thought was more along the lines of "this would work better for me if..." while today it's more "this would be cooler if..." ya' know?
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We sort of are, in that we find that as firearms improve and become more common, edged weapons become smaller. This is because their ease of carry became more important than their melee efficacy as the likelihood of them being actually used as a weapon decreased. The bowie knife represents a step in that process. The more likely you are to need it, relative to other weapons, the bigger and nastier it generally gets, within the bounds of practicality. It's essentially a sliding scale between weapon effectiveness and ease of carry dependent on what your circumstance dictates as the ideal balance between the two.
Triton
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Alright let's try again answering just the questions you asked.
Were there ancient swords of similar dimensions? Yes.
Did they have similar cutting ability? Impossible to tell.
Are modern swords superior? At what? Cutting mats? I don't think there are any records of that, so again impossible to tell. Superior in the field? Since not too many troops are fielded with modern swords again impossible to tell.
Is a cheap chitana better than ancient swords? Probably some of them. Probably not others.
horseclover
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Kool-Aid is a modern concept and in embracing that concept and perspective, one is going to ignore what swords were and how they were made. If one wants to learn about old swords, study old swords and not the modern representations of them (basing knowledge on say, Cold Steel videos ).
One can start at both ends and meet in the middle without ever absorbing a darn thing aside what seems popular and seemingly in demand.
Cheers
GC
).One can start at both ends and meet in the middle without ever absorbing a darn thing aside what seems popular and seemingly in demand.
Cheers
GC
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Kool-Aid is a modern concept and in embracing that concept and perspective, one is going to ignore what swords were and how they were made. If one wants to learn about old swords, study old swords and not the modern representations of them (basing knowledge on say, Cold Steel videos
One can start at both ends and meet in the middle without ever absorbing a darn thing aside what seems popular and seemingly in demand.
Cheers
GC
^Yup! Studying new swords tells you next to nothing about old swords!
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Nternal, your questions resemble those of a golfer who believes that the way to a lower score is through the quality of their clubs and the gadgets they purchase, rather than spending time practising or paying for the odd "pro" lesson.
There were period swords of similar dimensions, they were known as Tachi and were carried "upside down" and usually used on horseback.
In terms of strength and cutting ability, even with modern super steels etc. the Heat Treat is still more important than the materials used. The other (physical) aspects of a blade are only "superior" when considered through the "lens" of the task they will be used for. A 1mm thick kitchen knife will normally be "superior" to a 9mm competition cutter when it comes to making transparent slices of cucumber, but I suspect the competition cutter might be better at prying something (not that I recommend it for that). Is a machete superior to a golok?
You might as well pose the question to the guys on "Deadliest Warrior". They at least will take your question seriously and give you the definitive answer you seek. They'll even back it up with "evidence".
There were period swords of similar dimensions, they were known as Tachi and were carried "upside down" and usually used on horseback.
In terms of strength and cutting ability, even with modern super steels etc. the Heat Treat is still more important than the materials used. The other (physical) aspects of a blade are only "superior" when considered through the "lens" of the task they will be used for. A 1mm thick kitchen knife will normally be "superior" to a 9mm competition cutter when it comes to making transparent slices of cucumber, but I suspect the competition cutter might be better at prying something (not that I recommend it for that). Is a machete superior to a golok?
You might as well pose the question to the guys on "Deadliest Warrior". They at least will take your question seriously and give you the definitive answer you seek. They'll even back it up with "evidence".
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Yes and no. One of the aspects that seriously seems to have been lost (and yes, this derives directly from the lack of market, since swords just aren't used in today's market like they used to be), is the fact that a katana needs to be fitted to the user. In this day and age of weaponry that CAN be mass produced and used by anyone, we forget that, for a skilled swordsman, the blade needs to handle just right, and due to the immense differences in individual people, it's just not possible to have a sword that's right for everyone. It's a rare custom these days that builds a sword specifically for a customer. There's a particular stance in kendo that helps you identify the proper length for your sword, and depending on what kind of form you use, the sword dimensions may be different from person to person to optimize cutting. Depending on your arm length, torso length, leg length, etc, the same sword will be at different angles in the same move from person to person. Because the art of cutting with the Japanese sword is so integrally tied up with precise angles of cutting, that means that the same sword in different hands may cut very differently from one practitioner to the other.
There's not that much "drinking the mystical kool-aid," when you really get down to it. It's just a matter of the universal truth that skill matters. You wouldn't argue that some random high school soccer player is the equivalent of a Pele, or a Preki (dating myself here), etc, right? Or, for that matter, just check out the wide range of skill levels in knifemaking these days. I would be very cautious dismissing the skill and artistry represented in the cultural heritage of a swordsmith tradition passed down for generations as little more than mystical mumbo jumbo. To MOST katana buyers, there may not seem to be much difference between one sword and another. But then, most katana buyers swing a sword like a baseball bat, and don't even know how to grip the thing correctly, let alone how to actually use it with any kind of real proficiency, or how to choose blade length, curve geometry, tip geometry, weight and weight distribution, handle length, etc. (The only reason I know this is because I have a close friend who is a former world champion and knows many of the intricacies of the Japanese sword, btw; I'd be one of the average buyers otherwise).
Does all of this matter much in today's world? Not really. But for some of the really great pieces, there's a whole different level of quality beyond pretty much anything that gets produced today, outside of a custom from a swordsmith who really knows what he's doing, and how to build a sword for a particular customer. That's why it can cost thousands and thousands of dollars for one of those, when most of us would be satisfied with a good piece from a Paul Chen or a Chris Zhou, or a Cold Steel, etc. Incidentally, I would never personally buy a Cold Steel katana. They, in my opinion, are balanced way wrong and are far too heavy for the length, and handle like hogs in my hands. I do like most Cold Steel products, but their swords are not my cup of tea.