Photos , opinions wanted on blade layout

Case produced a lot of jack patterns with the pen blade on the pile side. The 6220 peanut and the 6232 Texas Jack being a couple more common ones. Ease of manufacture is certainly one reason - with the pen on the mark side, you have to make sure that you can properly access the main blade nick (and indeed, most old jacks have a cut swedge on the back side of the pen to give just that bit of extra room to access the main blade nick). Also, for many jack patterns, it's still just plain awkward to access the main blade nick over the pen, regardless of long pulls and swedging -- so Case may have been balancing ease of access (and freedom of nail nick size and placement) of the main blade against a bit more awkward access to the pen (plus, lefties had to love them). Case often dropped the pen down low and used a nail ease notch on many of their patterns with a pile side pen (like both of the above patterns) -- so they saved work in one way but added it in another. (I love patterns with nail ease notches - the notch actually works as an index so I don't have to look or feel around when accessing the pen nick. It's also nice for pen blades since it means the pen is lower in the liners (or can be made so), so it's much less likely to have the point come up over the liners as the pen is sharpened down over time.)

To me, the ultimate combination for a jack is to have both nicks on the mark side and to have the pen dropped down to be accessed by a nail ease notch - getting it out of the way of the main blade nick and making it "disappear" into the handle when using the main blade (plus it's a great detail). Here are a few very nice patterns that do this:

One of my favorite patterns - an equal end jack with both an EZOpen notch and a nail ease notch - first is a Schrade Cut Co, second is a Shapleigh Diamond Edge (made by Schrade Cut Co no doubt):
SchradeCutCoEqEndEZopenJack.jpg

ShapleighEqEndJackEZopenIvoryCel.jpg


Now a couple of old Robeson script ShurEdge PocketEze patterns (note that one of the primary design characteristics of the old PocketEze patterns was fully sunk joints). First a couple of reverse doglegs, then an equal end jack:
RobesonScriptPocketEzeDoglegCel.jpg

RobesonScriptPocketEzeDogleg.jpg

RobesonPocketEzeEqEndJack.jpg


If you want pictures of the Case patterns also, or some more like those above, just let me know.

-- Dwight
 
I too am a lefty and maybe its just the way I hold the knife but it does
seem easier if the pen is on markside. I think Charlie might have something there
with it being personal preference. Case or anyone else running a knife company
should have the ability to get both nicks on the same side by dropping the pen,
can't see how it would be cheaper one way or the other.
Ken.
 
Case was one of the few companies that normally put the pen blade in back on a two blade jack. There are exceptions. The 6217 curved jack and the 6216 and 6216 1/2 were standard with the pen in front. Also, during the XX and USA eras, some examples of the 009 barlow patterns and the 35 jacks had the pen blade in front, and most but not all of these had a different design on the main blade with the pull out further.

Most of the other "big names" in older companies had the pen blade in front as a standard...Schrade, Utica, LF&C, Remington, Western, Boker, Ulster, NYK, and a host of others. Robeson normally did it that way too...evidently sometimes they did not.

Other "big names" that usually put the pen in back were Union Cut/Kabar (on older knives only), Schatt & Morgan/Queen (again on older knives) and Winchester, though Winchester seems to be about 50-50.


Edited to add:

That Robeson butter & molasses jack is the first Robeson that I have ever seen made with the pen blade in back (and yes I do study these things).

Two thoughts about placement...

If the knife is designed with the pen blade on the pile side, would it be possible to make the pen blade slighly larger than if it were placed on the mark side, since the interference issues are eliminated?

Also, if a knife company is producing many knives with similar tooling, the pen blade that is placed in front on a two blade jack could also be the same blade used as the third blade on a three bladed knife. The nail pull would be in the correct position. I don't know if this was one of the reasons that companies used to do it that way.
 
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You picked a great day for this discussion. The sky clouded over and we've had intermittant rain showers since about the time I got off work. I only managed to snap one poor picture of the pile side pen family.

DSCF0262.jpg


Three Case and seven Queens. I've got twice that many with the pen on the mark side, but generally when I carry a two-blade jack (which is most of the time) I carry one of these. I tend to use the large blade for rough work, so I like to have it easy to get to. When I want the pen blade for detail work, I want to slow down and be more deliberate, and for me having to turn the knife over and think about getting to the small blade is part of that process.
 
I like both nicks on the mark side, no question. It makes opening the knife by feel, without visual cues, a no brainer. I don't like having to fumble with the knife in order to get the primary or secondary blade out.

To muddy the waters a bit I think if the secondary blade is more in line with the size as the master,pile side placement is more appropriate. Maybe I am letting the misconception that the pen blade is a blade not as often used and can be sunk down very low , out of the way, cloud my view on this.

Ken

On the other hand, two full blades can co-exist peacefully on the mark side if the right combination of blades is selected. Consider the Trapper and Mini-Trapper patterns with a Spey blade behind a Clip blade.
 
Only knife I have that I can think of that has the nail pull and secondary blade on the pile side is an older KA-BAR One Handed pattern. Not a pen blade but a small spey. I really do like it as I find it easy to lift the secondary blade with my middle fingernail and once raised above the main blade I can pinch with my thumb.

KAbar-1.jpg
 
I like it much better when the pen is on the mark side - I find this arrangement much easier to use because I can open both blades from the same hold. Here are a few examples:
Propellers002.jpg


Shields005.jpg


Plus a few pages from the 1886 HSB catalog
HSB1886710.jpg


HSB1886698.jpg


HSB1886696.jpg
 
I don't have any vintage knives with the pull on the pile side, but I do EDC a Canal Street jack with that configuation, and I like it. I don't do any of the turning and fumbling with it though, I just use my index finger nail to open the pen. Where is it written that you can only use your thumbnail?:confused::D:D

I can see where such a configuration really comes into it's own once the knife has been used and sharpened to the point that the kick has to be ground to hide the knife point. I've had a few of these knives, and it becomes a real bear to pry the master open because the pull is now below the pen blade and you have to pry your nail between the blades to get at the nick or pull. If the pen is on the pile side with it's nick on the pile side too, then it really doesn't matter how much kick has to be ground off because you'll always have clear access to the pull on bothe blades, at least until they disappears behind the liner!

Very cool thread Ken:thumbup::thumbup:

Eric
 
Only knife I have that I can think of that has the nail pull and secondary blade on the pile side is an older KA-BAR One Handed pattern. Not a pen blade but a small spey. I really do like it as I find it easy to lift the secondary blade with my middle fingernail and once raised above the main blade I can pinch with my thumb.

I'm with you Absintheur :o I was beginnng to think I was the only 1 who didn't flip the knife around to open a blade with a pile side pull. Like you, I just "reach over" with either my index or middle finger to get the blade started. This way it doesn't matter which way the knife comes out of my pocket. If the knife is facing the pile side when I dig it out of my pocket, and I want to use the main blade then I just "reach over" again.

Dave
 
This is really an interesting thread. My pocket knife gets all jumbled around in my pocket. When I pull it out I don't know how it will be oriented. I use the small blade a considerable amount of the time and keep it sharp. So I just flip it around depending on if it is on the pile side or the mark side. I guess I never really thought about it so I really don't have a preference.
 
All my jack knives have the nicks on the same side. It seems to be not so much a matter of height but the relative location of the nicks along the length of the blades that allows for easy acess. Perhaps that why the long nick is popular on many jack knives. I like opening both blades from the same side.
 
Related somewhat, is Pile-side punches. Here are two that I have;

LeftHandPunchTangs.jpg

LeftHandPunch1.jpg

LeftHandPunch1B.jpg

LeftHandPunch2.jpg

LeftHandPunch2B.jpg


You couldn't use these punches on a traditional cattle or stock pattern, so they were likely purpose built for the jacks. The fact that the knives are pretty old might tell us something about how attitudes changed around cutting corners/ and saving production costs.
 
Rambling along in this thread, all by my lonesome . . . . .
It is always enlightening to compare different eras of knife production. Here are three knives, with pile-side pens, from three different time periods of Case production.
The rough black, seen also on Tested knives (this one is an XX) is likely from early in the XX era, 1940s-50s.
The slick black is a U.S.A. so, ca.1966-67. The bone handled one is a 6-dot, so ~1974.
They are all 62055 numbered patterns.
The XX is slimmer in all proportions, even the nail nicks, and is definitely the nicest knife, best in the pocket. The relief cut for the pen is semi-hidden, a tapered notch through the liner that preserves the clean line of the oval handle.
The pre-molded rough black handles show what an ideally hafted handle would look like, jigged all the way to the bolsters and edges.
The U.S.A. slick black is heftier, bigger clip blade and nick, large cutout for the pen.
The dots knife is somewhat thicker through the handle (front to back), the bone taper-hafted, losing some jigging, and making it blockier.
PilePens3.jpg

PilePens4.jpg
 
I wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to post pictures and comments in this thread. I have learned one thing for sure, KEEP AN OPEN MIND! :eek: I pretty much had my mind made up that the pen BELONGED on the mark side, however after the comments and pictures I know there is a place for both arraignments.

Ken

PS , Charlie your not alone, I just have been busy putting the finishing touches on a 4" stockman (sold). IT is very interesting to see the progression(maybe forward, maybe backwards) on the same pattern, different time period. Take the nail nick for example, look at the difference in size!
 
I found one more, speaking of sizes, Ken. I don't know how old this one is, but it's likely a second generation knife, and is pretty nicely made. Unusual, with a long pull on a big "pen" blade which would make a spear blade for a smaller jack!!
Big honkin' Ka-Bar!!
PilePens5.jpg

PilePens6.jpg
 
Interesting thread here you guys. :thumbup:

Ken, here's one of mine with pen on mark side. I think I prefer the pen that way.

My grand dad's old Dunlap which has been featured here before. :)

IMG_1441.jpg


IMG_1438.jpg
 
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