Physical evidence regarding using mystery steel.

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Oct 23, 2006
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I recently used up my supply of purchased 1095 and 5160. So, I've been forging knives out of coil springs, of which I have a large supply of identical part numbers and have nailed the heat treat for through lots of trial and error and failure testing. However, I decided to use a worn out large bastard file for a change of pace. I treated it like 1095 throughout the entire process.

In addition, my belt grinder motor burned up a few weeks ago, so after forging all clean up was done with hand tools, which I prefer anyway. It was very easy to forge and cleaned up to make an attractive blade. So, I went on to the heat treat process.

The heat treat process was standard for 1095. Normalized twice, then I applied clay to the spine. I then brought it up to 1500F, soaked for about 2-3 minutes and quenched in hydraulic oil preheated to ~140F. There didn't appear to be any warping or cracks. I tempered it with two 120 minute cycles in a 450F oven.

When I tried clamping the blade to my knife board to clean up the decarb, I ran into a problem. I usually put a piece of thin suede under the blade, but this time the leather didn't run under the tang. The clamp was positioned in the middle of the tang and when I applied a moderate amount of torque on the clamp (a small 3" c-clamp), the tang snapped in half.

I thought to myself, after some colorful swearing, 'there should have been atleast a little springyness in the tang after two long temper cycles, what happened?'

Further inspection revealed a very small and uniform crystalline structure, as if the blade was merely quenched and not tempered. The crystalline structure appeared to be unaffected by the tempering cycles. (It should be noted that this is an assumption, since I didn't get to view the internal structure prior to tempering.) There was no evidence of any cracking that could have occured during the quench or initial forging - it was a clean break.

So, why did my blade break? It broke because I simply didn't know what I was working with. Obviously, I needed a higher temperature during the tempering process, perhaps as high as 550F or 600F. The only way to find out is to try again at a higher temperature.

Several hours of work are down the drain, because even if I HT it again, I won't be able to trust it.

Thus, instead, I will sharpen the knife and do an edge test and then see how far I can bend the blade until it breaks. I will post the results of the testing.

In the mean time, here is a picture of the broken tang. My camera can't take very good macro shots, so unfortunately, I can't post any photos of the crystaline structure.

Take Care,
BJ

DSCN3841.jpg
 
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What you might want to do is re-temper as you think you should have done based on what you know now, and THEN break it to see what change occurs.

-d
 
Deker,

I might do that, in fact I thought about it. However, in light of all the mystery vs. known steel postings lately, I thought it might be good to do the test after a standard HT process that most new knife makers would probably use. Two, two hour cycles at 400-450degF is pretty common and often recommended to new makers for 1095 and W1, which are both assumed steel types for nicholson files. This could give them some insight into why a known process for what they think a mystery steel is might not work.

Let me think about it. I'll post what I decided to do when I post the test findings. However, if there is an overwhelming consensus on this thread for no re-temper, or vice-versa, I'll do what the majority is interested in. It doesn't matter to me that much, as I won't use the blade for anything now. It will just end up in my broken blade box.
 
I guess this may be because of a micro-crack from forging, cold shot maybe. Though overheating causes brittleness that you might not get away with tempering. Maybe it is not so simple steel and forging heats mat be hotter than you have worked...

In conclusion; this would happen for a known steel also but if you knew what the steel was you would narrow down the possibilities where did you do it wrong....
 
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