Pick your arena!

J

John J

Joined
Nov 18, 1999
Messages
74
Sparring or better yet “stick-fighting” is an integral part of Filipino Martial Arts training. For some it’s combat application with a combat mindset but for others it’s a sport with competition in mind. Both have pros & cons but IMO...it is a player’s responsibility to approach stick-fighting in a realistic manner utilizing strategy, footwork, effective defense etc…

What are your thoughts on the various arenas? Why do/don't you participate in a particular arena? I would like to hear about your personal experience not only observations.

In short, here is what I’ve experienced firsthand:

Unarmored Largo Mano - Heightens your awareness but strikes are controlled and targets are limited.

WEKAF / Sport - Can help develop one’s conditioning and focus but build a false sense of security for others.

Limited Armor - Introduces an array of combat weaponry and empty-hand techniques including grappling. However, those who lack Eskrima skills revert to the sacrifice clinch or grapple.


John J
BAKBAKAN International

“It’s not the conditions in which you play, it’s how you engage” – John J
 
I've attended a lot of Gatherings of the Pack ( www.dogbrothers.com ). I'm an old, fat boy so it was as a spectator rather than a fighter. However, I enjoyed the intensity and more realistic atmosphere. Nothing's perfect, but the competitors seem to get a lot out of the matches.
 
I think the no armor padded stick is the most realistic - and dangerous.

WEKAF is good for building endurance and can develop good fighters. Unfortunately, most players just stand and trade blows.

Unarmored padded pole work is really good. Fast and furious.

I like the limited target type of sparring that Tony Diego does in the Illustrisimo style.
 
Hey Sundsvall,

I agree, the no armor/padded stick method works very well especially when the padded stick has a rattan core vs. PVC. Many people are too quick to criticize it but the injuries inflicted by padded sticks can be just as significant as real sticks.

We have 2 tournaments annually where players are wearing WEKAF gear. However, the rules were tweaked to encourage more realistic fighting. We do not allow careless inside exchanges. In fact, as a Referee I constantly remind the players to fight in & out throughout their match. If they do not, I break them. No matter how you look at it...it's all about mindset!

"Hand Targeting" as done with Ilustrisimo players is excellent for developing accuracy, timing and countering. Our students are introduced to this at a very early stage. I think most of us will agree that disarms come in two forms...a powerful handshot(s) or snake & strip.

John J
BAKBAKAN International
 
I've been doing full contact stick fighting for over 16 years. IMO all levels of fighting from no protection at all to michelin man with foam stick are important for proper development. However, I have found that the more pads you put on or if a padded weapon is used the more likely you will end up in "what if" land. The only way to get out of there is to go at it for real or with at least a helmet. Afterwards there is less likely to be any doubt about who got hit and where. In Inayan Eskrima we start students out with padded or very light contact and move from there as they develop with our curriculum. Most of us have opted to do full contact stick fighting less often but with helmet only when we go. As my Instructor Suro Mike Inay use to say - there is no arguing with a welt or broken finger. If it's there, you know you did something wrong.

Good thread John J.

--
Steve Klement
Inayan Masirib Guro
www.inayaneskrima.com
klement@inayaneskrima.com
Inayan Systems International
 
Inayan,

I agree with you about scaling contact. In full michelin man mode, your body doesn't respond to the strike, so the response is unnatural.

When I was just starting out in WEKAF full contact fighting, I used to punch my opponent in the helmet. This is because they get too close to do their "U" and forget to trap on their way in. I didn't know what I was doing but I know I didn't respond to their strikes properly.

In the modern arnis school, we wore the WEKAF armor but wielded 18" long, 1.25" thick firehardened rattan sticks. This is very different because the sticks bite through the armor and the headshots deliver a sizeable amount of force to the head and neck. The regulation sparing sticks are toothpicks compared to these sticks.

In my first public full contact stickfight, one of my opponents used a karate rising block repeatly. In the locker room after we stripped off the gear (we wore football forearm protectors), his arm looked like Rocky's face after the first movie with more color.

Hey John,

Disarms are most easily achieved by striking the offending appendage followed by some manipulation.

Tatang Illustrisimo likes to disarm via a direct strike to the weapon itself. The "Fire and Brimstones" cut from Musashi's five rings if you will.

Do you guys do the tire strikes at Bakbakan?

Tatang Illustrisimo and Tony Diego suggested that I train with Ray Galang in NJ, but he is just not accessible to me on a regular basis.
(I went to PI a couple of times in the early-mid 90s when Tatang was still with us.)

Too bad you don't have Bakbakan people in NYC. I would be there.

-Sundsvall
 
Originally posted by DancesWithKnives
I've attended a lot of Gatherings of the Pack ( www.dogbrothers.com ). I'm an old, fat boy so it was as a spectator rather than a fighter. However, I enjoyed the intensity and more realistic atmosphere. Nothing's perfect, but the competitors seem to get a lot out of the matches.
Click to expand...

I checked out the "Gathering of the pack" footage. It looks pretty good.
 
Hi Steve,

You are absolutely correct, the various conditions are invaluable to a player's development. I try as much as possible to include such diversity in my personal training/sparring.

Sundsvall,

I'm not sure about the "direct strikes to the weapon". The disarms of Tatang's that I am accustomed to are somewhat "camouflaged". They are very obscure as they are built-in in the transition from defense to counter.

We do not use tires for "power training". We strike rope, VESSEL TOWING ropes that is. They are close to 5" in diameter and 6'in length. They hang upright from the ceiling and are weighted down to prevent over swaying. It is a great tool that allows us to freely move around it a full 360 degrees and strike from head-to-toe. Also, you are less susceptible to injuries like tendonitis.

I was fortunate to meet Rey Galang many years ago and because of him, have had the opportunity to meet & train with other prominent figures of our organization such as Christopher Ricketts and the late PG Edgar Sulite. My knowledge, approach to teaching & training methodologies are a direct reflection of these 3 gentlemen.

John J
BAKBAKAN International
 
John,

One of Tatang's disarms is that he hits your stick with his stick. The transfer of energy causes you stick to vibrate and shocks your hand open, thus dropping the stick.

Southern Chinese kung fu people use that method with rattan sticks and poles.

The transitional disarms are pretty cool, I only know a few of them. I particularly liked the upright posture, ambidexterous focus. The attack methods are very tight and difficult to counter. The Illustrisimo attack methods are very different from the modern kali/arnis/eskrima angles. I also liked the fact that they trained with a pair of 20" practice swords.

-Sundsvall
 
Hello John,

Nice topic..heres my 2 cents.

I think all those sparring methods have their place.

WEKAF- for students to learn how to engage and mentally handle an opponent going crazy on you.

Largo Mano- For timing and targeting.

Limited protection- just so you're not doing too much real contact fighting. So youre spending time actually fighting and not healing.

Real contact- just to know what you can pull off in a almost realistic combat situation.


I was made to do real contact fighting at 13 years old..which I hated and thought was crazy at the time. Kind of like the dogbrothers but with lighter sticks. Later on that training saved myself and my brothers in nasty street encounters later in our teen years.

So I think they all have their place. We do more limited protection sparring and real contact fighting more these days...no more wekaf style.

Real contact is a great way to develope combat attributes and also the best way to settle "technical disputes"...
 
Hey Carl,

It's nice to get your input. I've heard some wonderful things about your family's background through mutual friends. Do you all still train in JC?

A simple note that many players seem to neglect is that FMA evolved from combat so a "combat mindset" MUST be maintained 100% of the time no matter what aspect or level of training is being performed. I follow 2 simple concepts for training, "For the Street" and "For the Arena". Both are pretty self-explanatory. Although my approach when teaching these concepts differ, the "mindset" never changes.

I too have stayed away from tournament participation except to referee or judge. Like you, I much prefer "full-contact", be it weapons or empty-hands. It is the MOMENT OF TRUTH!

Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
 
Hey John,

Yes...I've been in JC since 95'.

"A simple note that many players seem to neglect is that FMA evolved from combat so a "combat mindset" MUST be maintained 100% of the time no matter what aspect or level of training is being performed."

I agree. We were pretty much made to train in FMA by our father. My father and other associates obtained alot of their combat experience from street encounters back in the 70's and early 80's so our training was pretty much street focused.

We came up in a rough place so the "combat mindset" set in pretty quickly and at a young age.

We pretty much trained "for the street" because of our environment. We were not allowed to do and WEKAF type competing just backyard stuff...like I said before, by the time we saw our first street encounters we understood why we weren't allowed certain sparring methods.

But we haven't seen the hardcore street stuff in a few years and we started with the real contact stuff every so often...

I guess we are starting to miss it...true pinoys huh(JK).


Nice to here from you John, heard you were the man in Bakbakan!
 
"We were pretty much made to train in FMA by our father."

I remember the connection between the Atienza name & Pekiti Tirsia from long ago. My exposure was quite the opposite. Although my father introduced me to Arnis de Mano, he encouraged me to pursue other arts less weapon oriented.

"like I said before, by the time we saw our first street encounters we understood why we weren't allowed certain sparring methods."

The street encounters offer some of the best lessons that martial training can never offer. Fortunately, you were all well seasoned to handle the aggression. As all of us agree, there are still benefits from the over padded stuff. Have you found means to include it in your curriculum?

"and we started with the real contact stuff every so often..."

Aside from the physical strain your body takes, players willing to "take it up a notch" are also hard to come by.

"I guess we are starting to miss it...true pinoys huh(JK)."

Unfortunately some pinoys do. I've seen it many times with Filpino gangs.

I wish you guys continued success. You have strong organizations that endorse the Atienza name.
 
Hey John,

"The street encounters offer some of the best lessons that martial training can never offer. Fortunately, you were all well seasoned to handle the aggression. As all of us agree, there are still benefits from the over padded stuff."

They can be, but unfortunatley just like in training you take you losses in the beginning. The street has humbled us over and over again. The street is not at all forgiving. But we wouldn't have the system we have today if it wasn't for those experiences. I wouldn't want to see some of the stuff I've seen again.

"Have you found means to include it in your curriculum?"

Yes

We have Real Combat Exercises (RCE's). Our attempt at bridging the gap between drill and combat. Exercises done to help sparring.

Also Mass Attack Exercises (MAE's). A good way to develope detailed footwork, target accuracy and power. Good for also keepin track of who is around you.

Both RCE's and MAE's HELP to prepare the psyche for the street. Help you to find the calm needed to execute whats needed.

This we concentrated alot on when we were younger because assailants came in numbers and armed.

Also use of projectiles...big thing!

"Aside from the physical strain your body takes, players willing to "take it up a notch" are also hard to come by."

We don't do this too often...enough to remind us how thing feel like.

"Unfortunately some pinoys do. I've seen it many times with Filpino gangs."

Our problem were chinese gangs back in the day...but New jersey has alot of Filipino gangs....that suprised me.

Thanks again John,
Carl
 
I was trained mostly in the no armour / real combat school with rattan only. It was very dangerous and as it got more intense, I was finally able to locate an array of training resources to minimize the danger of almost full out training.

I have done the WEKAF full armour sparring outside my main style informally. I liked it for learning to flow and doing multiple hits. The armour allowed for using the live hand more. I did not like the fact that I couldn't safely hit below the belt, though.

The limited armour multiple weapons I have done outside of FMA in SCA style LARPING events. It was using a variety of home made safety weapons. There was a lot of problem solving since the emphasis was on western style of combat. I had to learn to compensate and adapt to techniques I was not accustomed to. This included flail and projectile weapons, also. The melee and pack scenarios were interesting, too. Lots of hit and run gurilla tactics could be employed en masse or individually.

For what it's worth...
 
I can't speak to the other forms of sparring/fighting mentioned as I haven't done them, but I love the DB stuff I'm doing now.

I currently attend a Pekiti-Tirsia school that includes Dog Brothers Martial Arts in the curriculum, and when we spar it's usually light armour (gloves, knee/elbow pads, fencing masks) and rattan.

I've also noticed that when sparring with sticks the sacrifice charge and grapple is common, so we work to deal with it and also to use it (excepting that we try very hard to make the entry non-sacrifice, usually coming in under an umbrella/with a wall or after the live hand has shut down our opp's weapon arm).

I like the realism involved in the DB sparring. I enjoy the fact that it's competetive without being competition (nobody keeps score). The contact is affirming; when you get hit you know your opponent outsmarted you, and when you hit you know what you did worked. Communication afterwards, sitting around and jawing about the experience, is also key.

To me the downside is that to spar full contact with sticks means forgetting that the stick represents a blade, at least in PT it's supposed to. Thus, in sparring, it's tempting to give up a sacrifice that you would never contemplate if the weapon were edged.

Pierre
 
Hello Rubber Ducky,

"To me the downside is that to spar full contact with sticks means forgetting that the stick represents a blade, at least in PT it's supposed to. Thus, in sparring, it's tempting to give up a sacrifice that you would never contemplate if the weapon were edged."

Very nice point. We saw quiet a few machete fights growing up. Mainly from drug gangs that called them "cutlass".

We have a big emphasis on the big blades because of those experiences. We do what we called blade simulators. With very detail judging we try our best to simulate what blade strikes count. One shot one kill type sparring..The secret is to have good judges and only count unanswered severing/decapitating blows. We also try to use weapons with weight so the student would have to actually train for its use and not have anything too light...real big blades are not light.

Suprisingly, we've been very successful with this method of sparring with our students over the past 10 years...and the transfer to full contact stick fighting was almost seemlees

Students pay extreme attention to their defenses and amazingly learn to counter a few levels deep.

Like I said it depends on the judges.

Carl
 
Two-Sword, thanks for the reply.

The type of sparring you do sounds remarkably like the type of sparring ARMA does (www.thehaca.com). They're a group of guys recreating European combat arts and they do full contact sparring with "bladed" wasters as well.

Personally I'm quite glad to have skipped the machete matches while growing up, though :o

Pierre
 
Rubber Ducky,

Personally I'm quite glad to have skipped the machete matches while growing up

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. We WITNESSED these kind of fights...very rare that we willingly looked for fights like that.

Sorry for the confusion...

Carl
 
Sorry, I was the one that was unclear. I understood that you witnessed them and were not participants. I'm just glad I didn't have to witness that kind of spectacle as a kid.

Pierre
 
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