Pictures that the media didn't want us to see. (Very Graphic)

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Nope, no rattlesnakes, I saw a bunch of gators, Manatees, and a couple of Wild Turkeys [not the ones on the bottles] the real items. It was cool, I had a great time.
 
hollowdweller said:
Sleiman,

I am totally in agreement with you about the killing of Iraqis. I think the US squandered a tremendous amount of goodwill offered them by the Iraquis by failing to have enough troops and plans to keep civil order. Then we basically took the game book from the Israelis (and Saddam) for collective punishment of the population. End result even the middle of the road people hate us now.
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Hollowdweller;

I think your analysis is unfair, and flawed.

The US squandered Iraqi good will by failing to have enough troops and plans to keep civil order?

Come on. Who could have foreseen that minutes after Saddam was overthrown and his hand picked units melted into the civilian population that the Iraqis would loot everything in sight?

Can you cite me one single person in any US party, either for or against the war in Iraq, prior to the war who said, "Hey, you know, we better be prepared for the entire country to go on a looting rampage."

You can't, because no one expected it, and no one should be blamed for not expecting it. Germany and Japan didn't explode into looting. In fact, I'm not coming up with any country that was either conquered or liberated where the population suddenly melted down. Unless of course you count the idiots who trash their cities when their favorite sports team wins a championship.

Keep order you say? That is a no win situation. If the US had had lots of troops keeping order with an iron fist, then they would have been accused of acting like conquerors. If they stayed back out of the way ("Hell, it's their country, they can loot it or tear it up if they want.") then others accuse them of not keeping civil order.

It's a no win situation because somebody is always going to come along and Monday Morning Quarterback with their perfect 20-20 hindsight vision.

Then you say, "Then we basically took the game book from the Israelis (and Saddam) for collective punishment of the population. End result even the middle of the road people hate us now."

That is ridiculous. First off, please tell me how the Iraqis are being collectively punished. How many homes have been bulldozed in retaliation for the US soldiers killed and wounded? And to compare US post-war policy to Saddam? Man, that is so far off the mark I have no words to say about it except that you really need to take a step back and re-evaluate your comparison of an American adminstration and military policy that bends over backwards to avoid civilian casualties and general disruption, to a regime where people were dragged off and tortured or killed just for saying the wrong thing. When US troops liberated, yes, liberated Iraqi cities they released hundreds of CHILDREN who were jailed just because Saddam felt their parents were possible threats.

Even the middle of the road people hate us now? Not by a longshot. Not even close. Please do an internet search of Gallup and Times Mirror polls and you will find that the marjority of Iraqis, some 70+% of them are glad the US is there and that they believe their lives will be better a year from now.

Iraq has a population of what, some 25 million people? And what has the US and Coalition Forces faced since the fall of Saddam? Random car bomb and land mine attacks. I don't know how many insurgents are actively fighting the Coalition, but it can't be much more than a few thousand at most, and when you compare that to the population of Iraq as a whole, that is a very small minority.

Yeah, things are rough in Iraq. No one had or has, any idea how long it will take a country to go from some 40 years of existing under one dictatorial rule after another, to a democratic and open society. But no one, no one in the current adminstration ever suggested this was going to be a fast and easy process.

And as far as most people in the Middle East disliking America? Hell, they've disliked us for years, so what else is new.

But I will tell you this: a whole boatload of positive things have happened since we took out the Taliban and Saddam:

1. The North Koreans have stopped being so confrontational. They've now agreed to weapons inspectors.

2. Iran has agreed to weapons inspectors.

3. Libya has foresworn their MWD programs and have invited the UN in to oversee their dismantling.

And you know what else is interesting? No one other than Muamar Khadaffi's son has endorsed the Bush plan for post war Iraqi reconstruction.

That's a pretty strong endorsement in my opinion.

Don
 
hollowdweller said:
Where I live the economy sucks. People move out of state all the time to work. They could live here but it is easier to live higher somewhere else. Then when the economy gets better they move back here and want to try to make here like everywhere else. Meanwhile all of us who have found a way and made the sacrafices to live here have to put up with them telling us how backward we are.

I always feel like these folks are traitors, because they could have stayed here and worked to make things better, but then when times get better they move back.

I can't help but feel that is how a lot of Iraquis feel about Chalabi and the other crooks we put on the governing council. I mean shouldn't it be the people who didn't cut and run who get to call the shots?
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You honestly think badly of people who move to where the jobs are better?

I don't follow that line of reasoning at all.

You know, some 16 years ago I finished a master's degree in business after leaving the army and going back to school. The only job I could get paid me $4.50 an hour. Now, I was a former army captain, with both a BA and an MBA. I spent months sending out resume after resume, but got nothing but that $4.50 an hour job.

I ended up moving to California where I was still unemployed for a while, but I finally got a job that paid a lot better than $4.50 an hour. Within a year I was making $35,000 a year. There was no way in hell I was going to make that kind of money in my home town with the way the economy was then.

But yet you would think me a traitor for going out of state to try to make a living commensurate with the experience and education I sacrificed to attain. You'd think I was a better person if I just stayed there in my home town making slightly more than minimum wage, and expect me to try to raise a family on that.

I don't understand, Hollowdweller. I work for a government agency now and I have met people who have been GS-5 or GS-6 secretaries for 20 or 30 years. What's with that? Don't these people have any ambition to make a better life for themselves? A person in federal service could apply for a higher grade position every single year. An $18,000/yr GS-4 could apply for a -5 position in a year. A -6 six in another. A -7 after that, then a -9, then an -11. In the space of five years that person could more than double their salary. I doubled mine twice over three years.

Some day I hope to go back to my home town, and I don't want it anything like California when I do. I want it to be just plain old common sense well grounded midwest, just like when I left it 16 years ago.

Don
 
Let's not forget that we killed somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000 of their retreating conscript army in the first Gulf War. They may well have some rage at us for that. Plus, all the people who rose up against Hussein that time, and then were hung out to dry when we didn't finish the job we'd started, they may also have some anti-American feeling.

It's a deep well, and all that bubbles up is rage and oil.
 
It is too bad the oil ever started bubbling up over there. Things seemed to be at least on a "low boil" in the middle east until they struck oil and got their hands on some money. Just look what they did with it. There is something wrong with the picture of a guy living in a tent with an outdoor toilet holding state-of-the-art automatic and rocket-propelled weapons. GWB's people might do everyone the most good if they could figure out how to permanently cap every oilwell in the whole region and let things simmer down. It would keep everyone else from fighting over the stuff too.
 
Muppet said:
Let's not forget that we killed somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000 of their retreating conscript army in the first Gulf War. They may well have some rage at us for that. Plus, all the people who rose up against Hussein that time, and then were hung out to dry when we didn't finish the job we'd started, they may also have some anti-American feeling.

It's a deep well, and all that bubbles up is rage and oil.
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In battle, a conscript in a good defensive position can kill you just as dead as a volunteer.

The fact an enemy is retreating is not reason enough to call off the attack, but the better reason for continuing it. Attacking a disorganized and retreating opponent means your guys are more likely to be around when the fighting stops.

That "retreating" conscript army had not surrendered and was merely returning home - they were still combatants in a state of war. Ceasing your attack to let an enemy retreat, if they are still in a state of war with you merely allows them time to regroup, reorganize and pick good defensive positions which means your own guys bleed more to dig them out of them.

What if all those Iraqi conscripts (who by the way had no qualms at all about invading Kuwait and brutalizing the Kuwaitis) had retreated back into the cities and taken up defensive positions in occupied residences or Mosques?

Oh, I forgot - that's what the insurgents are doing now. Silly me.

As far as leaving the Iraqis who wanted to oust Saddam out to dry, all I can say is I agree with you. I don't know what Bush-41 was thinking, or why the Americans didn't support that effort. For that reason alone a number of ant-Saddam Iraqis do not trust America. This is why it is important for the Americans to not buck and run this time, because the reprisals against anti-Saddam Iraqis will be even worse.

"Ethnic Cleansing" will take on a much greater meaning than it had in Kosovo.

Don
 
For there to be a 'good will' or 'badwill' in the Middle East there must be at least some general agreement about what reality is. The media and education outlets are propaganda there, so what is seen?

What makes anyone think we had any good will to squander? We are baby killers, and slaughter innocent civilian Iraqis. Just ask Al Jazeer.

Any true 'goodwill' was squandered after the Yugoslavia mess- when at the pressure from England, Germany and France, Nato enforced an arms embargo that effectively left a pop of Moslems unarmed against the 'Christian' former aperatus controllers who had both small and heavy arms.

We must go ahead with Iraq. If you don't think it important- ask why Syria, Iran, and Al Queda are all there fighting against us.

This idea we could have known what to expect in Iraq is silly naive blame affixing nonsense. Did anyone know what to expect in WWll? And that was comparatively straightforward- though ask the expeditionary commaders who were landing on French Soil if they expected help or bullets from the French.


munkl
 
We are in with the tar baby.
We knew what to expect in Iraq, but everyone saw what they wanted to see.....and believed what they wanted to believe.

When the head of the joint chiefs told us that we would need 200,000 troops to keep the peace, he was fired, and this was before the war started. We knew what to expect after Yougoslavia and Ireland.

When the treasury secretary told us what the war would cost, he was fired. His estimates were low, in retrospect.

We knew what the costs would be in soldiers and money...but no one wanted the American people to know. Our govt. is now doing the same thing with photos of our soldiers.

The war in Iraq is like an ink blot test. Everyone sees what they want to see, and does not see what they do not want to see.

Meanwhile, if we win the peace, will will have to deal with 60% Iranian sympathizers - the Shiite majority in the country. We don't even want to think of the Sunii. Guess what they want, and it is not Pizza Hut, alcohol and the freedom of the press .... or any other freedom for that matter. Right after Saddam was deposed, the Shiites ran around shooting owners of liquor stores and video rental/sales stores. In Iran, you get thrown in jail for drinking at a party and dancing. They beat you....that is not freedom. In Saudi Arabia, you get thrown in jail if your brand of Muslim is not their brand.

Wars kill people, they do not serve as the most effective form of foreign policy. They represent failures of diplomacy. I am no pacifist, but I do not see any way for us to come out ahead in this one. I sure hope that I am wrong, but....I just hate to see our good kids die over there - including kids I know and like.
 
If war is failure of foreign policy, what is it Chamberlain (sic?) could have told Hitler differerently? How many more UN resolutions should be passed for Saddam? How many other nations on Earth were allowed to fire at US planes with relative impunity for 10 years? Does diplomacy include the 10 billion siphoned off the top of the food for oil program, and the UN, Germany, France and Russia being involved? - all those wanting to give Saddam more time?

I haven't yet heard convincing evidence we need more troops. We might. The administration said it will send more when the Generals want more. I don't believe the former employee's 'fired' as you put it, for that cause and effect relationship.

This is not a clear cut war- it was not clean in the sense the Huns were coming over the ridge- or landing in NY harbor. Life is complicated at times. This is the reality we have right now, like it or not. The world's premier intelligence agencies failed in predicting what Iraq's WMD status was.
That does not mean that now, both for the Iraq people and ourselves, this isn't a battle worth winning.

munk
 
I would like the big Kahuna to tell us that Woodward lied - I don't think that he will, because Woodward did not lie.
I am referring to the comment: "Is that the best that you have?"

The war did not have anything to do with WMD. It may have had to do with anger at Saddam, personal family business, and a feeling that we don't like people telling us "no."

I recall Saddam offering big rewards for the families of terrorists when they blew themselves up. He was clearly evil. This does not justify a war in my opinion. We had other methods for dealing with this.

I am not enthusiastic about the strategy - If in doubt, go to war.

I have no doubts that some wars are needed. WWII was needed, even before we got into it.

However, I would like to see a clear cut reason for our entering war - like self defense.

Personally, I would like to go into Burma and help Su Ky. She was elected by
the people of Burma, and has been under house arrest for years.
Check out "Beyond Rangoon" if you want to know what has been going on there. I don't see us sending our troops to Burma to fight for freedom. There are lots of Burmas around the world.

The latest story is that we won't allow the new Govt of Iraq to pass laws.

I do not see us as fighting for freedom there. We are not fighting to prevent WMD from hurting us.

I would like to see a clear case for war before we put our soldiers at risk. If there is a good case, then we should give our army, marines and airforce all that they need. ....Not all that Rummy will allow them to have. Money should not be an issue when our soldiers are at war.
Our soldiers deserve the best in weapons, supplies, and body armor.
 
There are many valid reasons Iraq was selected- instead of Saudi, for example. You believe for some reason that now without WMD everyone lied. That is a a stretch beyond imagination- ask Tony Blair- a member of a party at philosophical odds with Bush's, but who none the less could see the writing on the wall.

There are those who understand WWlll has started, and those who do not, and even those who do but still object to Iraq.

Arty, for me, you and Sleiman's version of reality is too one sided. We will have to agree to disagree. I dont' see Iraq as Gun Ho- full steam ahead, damn the torpedos, fight for any excuse. But I do see the strategic importance to the World and benefit to the Iraqi's.


munk
 
Please don't assume that I share a view of reality with anyone. We all see the world differently.

Incidentally, honesty has nothing to do with one's political slant.

I know that Tony Blair lied about Iraq.

Frankly, most politicians lie. The real issue is whether their lies will cause lots of deaths, or cost us our jobs, or ....are relatively trivial.

You can take it from there.

I don't believe that anyone can get into political office without an occasional lie. The problem for us is that the stuff is hitting the fan far too often, and too many of our politicians have a shovel that is far too big....Too bad we don't have Yvsa's old logo on this site. We could use it for politicians.

We need to be critical thinkers about our leaders. Critical doesn't mean calling them bad, it means that we question what they tell us.
 
Arty- is this your personal crystal ball- that Blair lied? Because a British Court exonerated the Govt of 'sexing up' the intelligence. The BBC came out of that fracas damaged- their credibility injured. While I agree everyone and every politician lies, I cannot see why Blair would go against his own party, and risk destruction to do so. It simply makes no sense.

We all try to see around the issues, Arty.

take care,
munk
 
Hi Munk - Nope, I don't use my crystal ball anymore.

If you hunt through old news reports, you will find that the British military had their orders to get ready for a Feb. war in Iraq, while Blair and Bush were supposedly making up their minds about what to do. That was one reason lots of people in the UK were angry at Blair....and many still are.

We all enjoy our fantasies, but I hope that they stay out of the forum. I used to have much more fun just talking knives, guns, or finishing handles.
 
There were plans for war before even Feb- last minute attempts in UN almost delayed it too long for the season.

<<We all enjoy our fantasies, but I hope that they stay out of the forum. >>> Arty

I find it remarkable you would say this. I've stated I disagree with you. People who disagree are not neccesarily crazy or in fantasy land. It's frustrating this and most issues are examined as either/ or propositions; when the reality of the situation is rarely so simple.


and as I said before, take care.


munk
 
OK, that's about emough. If you can't disagree with someone without allowing him to retain his dignity and humanity, you should take a break and come back later.

I'm going to lock this thread down. Time for it to go away and die.
 
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