Pin placement tip

Sando

Sando

Knife Maker
Joined
Jul 4, 2002
Messages
1,148
Disclaimer

I'm no master smith.
I'm no artist
I'm no expert
I'm just gonna blab about what I personally like/look for.

Blabbing....

There's many places you can put pins: Middle, corners, thirds, quarters, ... More often than not the more artistic knives will have pins, bolsters, lines, etc. placed at the golden section.

The Golden Section is an art/layout thing (you can google it). Basically it's a ratio in .618 (or 1.618 depending on how you look at it. It's about 5:8. You'll see knives with 5" handles and 8" blades. Or 5" handle and an overall length of 8". This ratio appears all over place.

What I like to do is take the length of the handle and multiply by .618. Then multiply by .618 again, and again, and again.

This gives me some recommended placements for pins and such. For example, if a handle is 4.75" from butt to the front of the bolster I get:

4.75 * .618 = 2.94
2.94 * .618 = 1.81
1.81 * .618 = 1.12
1.12 * .618 = .69

Now I have some suggested distances. Maybe I want a bolster. A good width might be 1.12 or .69. Maybe it's a hidden tang; the pin at 2.94" from the butt will probably look nice. Maybe the average width of the handle should be .69.

The golden section is not a rule, just a time honored way of placing elements in a composition. Maybe when your scratching your head about where put things, I hope this might be a help.

Steve
 
Well now this is certianly different! Someting I haven't really given much thought, to, however a very important topic. Thanks Steve for the tips! Thinking back, I've seen some pin placements that were really not very good visually. I better start looking at my own work closer!
 
I don't quite understand what you guys mean by all those fancy golden rule numbers. For me, it might as well mean the quasar speed multiplied by the moon's speed around the sun divided by the earth's speed, and then divided by my mother in law's popularity rating, which is a negative number. I gotta scratch my head on this some more. I understand the concept, but the math leaves me in the dust.
 
John Andrews said:
I don't quite understand what you guys mean by all those fancy golden rule numbers. For me, it might as well mean the quasar speed multiplied by the moon's speed around the sun divided by the earth's speed, and then divided by my mother in law's popularity rating, which is a negative number. I gotta scratch my head on this some more. I understand the concept, but the math leaves me in the dust.
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I agree!
Just my opinion, but handle pin placement should come naturally to a knifemaker.
If you have to resort to math to find the best placement, rather than your own good sense of design, well..............................:confused: ;)

I also feel the same about knife design.:eek:
 
Oh come on guys, that's like saying that artists should never study art - just do whatever you feel like. Musicians should never study music, just do rap and get rich.

The golden section shows up in nature all the time. It shows up in art all the time. It shows up in architecture all the time. Sometimes it's because it comes naturally to the artist, but it can also be learned.

My whole point is simply, "if you are stuck on where to place things try the Golden Section. You might like how it looks."

I mean really guys - you use math all the time making knives.. If you want to put a pin in the center of the handle, width-wise you measure and divide by 2. Maybe you eye-ball it, maybe you measure, but you do it.

The golden section is no more than centering, or dividing in thirds. And once you get used to seeing it you don't have to measure. Ever look at a nice landscape painting? The horizon is almost always at the golden section. ....

Come on, learn something new, expand your horizons

http://www.goldennumber.net/goldsect.htm

Steve
 
The Golden Ratio is a very interesting Subject that Sando has brought up. You see the number in nature quite a bit, and it is used in mathmatics. This was lately brought up in "The De Vinci Code" as the divine proportion as it's also called. Read up on it, it makes for some interesting reading.

I don't think Steve was saying that's it's the best way to do things, but rather something to try out if you get stuck on a handle. :)
 
Heck, I'm happy when I get the pins installed and they're not too close to the edges and are evenly spaced.
 
Who wants to be an artist anyhow? Craftsmanship. That's were its at. I do like your technical outlook though. I don't call you the wisard of BF for noth'n.

RL
 
Sando said:
Oh come on guys, that's like saying that artists should never study art - just do whatever you feel like. Musicians should never study music, just do rap and get rich.

Steve
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See that little ;) smilie. it's called a wink emoticon. That's to let everyone know not to take the comment too seriously.

I have more information on the "golden rule" in my favorites than I ever want to know.
I've never used it, just depended on my own experience, and eye.

I guess there's really nothing wrong with using it. I mean look at all those hollow grinding fixtures that are sold. And lets not forget corporate Rock and Roll, created by office people under orders.
I believe it was called "Disco". ;) :barf: ;) :D
 
Mike Hull said:
See that little ;) smilie. it's called a wink emoticon. That's to let everyone know not to take the comment too seriously.

I believe it was called "Disco". ;) :barf: ;) :D
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OK I gotcha Mike.

Disco, I didn't like it then either!! Never could figure that one out.

Chris: Now you have me running screaming to the hills. That math is out of my league. Still gotta admit the nautalis shells have a pretty spiral.


Roger: "Who wants to be an artist anyhow? Craftsmanship. That's were its at."

Hahahahahaha, your avatar betrays your statement. That's art.



Burchtree: You got my point. Thanks

Steve
 
I like beer! :D

Hey Steve, I like your math, Bubba. Its a darn good thing to know when you've been in the shop all night and your eyes are all fuzzy and you've GOT to get that knife done. Better to rely on the numbers than eyeballin' it at that point. Besides, my college lit professor always said there was beauty in numbers, and those that had the gift of mathematics also had the gift of art.

Think she was nuts?
 
I once had a very emphatic and frustrating argument with a Physics professor who insisted that the universe follows differential equations. To me it is obvious that humans invented mathematics to describe the complexity of nature. He was just too dense to see the difference-he should have been an engineer instead....

Many great musicians have not been able to read music, while others study the theory intensely to do their thing. The same applies here. Some people plan everything while others sort of take it as it comes along. You just have to do what is right for you.

As for pins, I drill the holes before I harden the steel and that is a long ways up the road from getting one 2/5 of the way up the handle.
 
Sando said:
OK I gotcha Mike.

Disco, I didn't like it then either!! Never could figure that one out.
Steve
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Well, Disco was created by scientific methods, by corporate executives that thought that music should be created that way, instead of by the hard work of a down and out song writer loaded on chemicals.
I think they used the "Golden Rule".:eek: ;)
 
Whats wrong with the old way of finding the center of the haft and then the center to the right and left. That should give you a perfect 3 or 2 pin layout. Hmmmmmm, you guys have me wondering now. Anyway they look nice and balanced, if you have them right top to bottom, mumble mumble mumble.


Ken Beatty
 
shgeo said:
Many great musicians have not been able to read music, while others study the theory intensely to do their thing. The same applies here. Some people plan everything while others sort of take it as it comes along. You just have to do what is right for you.
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You said it! Some folks can draw a beautify picture one a blank page. I can't draw a circle soes you could recognize it.

I've studied a little for graphic design and composition. I can't draw a thing. I'm one of those that has to rely on standard principles of composition.

Mike says my work looks like disco. ;) But you wouldn't want to see me make things random!

Steve

PS, Mike in your avatar ... Isn't that a 5" handle and 8" blade? You artist you.
 
One more thought:

* There are those that can make beautiful things without thinking about it.

* There are those that can make beautiful things thru study and inspiration.

* There are those that make plain stuff no matter how hard they try.

* There are those that make plain stuff and are content.

Those in the first group should be tolerant of the rest of us. We have to use every trick we can to keep up.

In my knife making book/video collection I have several on knife making techniques. Book and magazines of just knife pictures. I have books on graphic arts and industrial design. I even have a survey of architecture design. All used for making and designing knives.

Heck on my knife making bench is a pretty sea shell from a snail or something. I look at it to remind me of beauty, functionality, and simplicity in design.

So YES I use pre-packaged french curves (I can't draw). I also use a ruler and a calculator. I imitate, borrow, and try to innovate. I'll use whatever I can to pretend I'm an artist.

Steve

PS Thanks Higgy you got my point.
 
Steve, you are a very scientific person! Much better at numbers, too. I understand what you are trying to put across in lay terms, but you are way beyond my math capibilities if I had to do it by the numbers. You are right about studying and delving into the fine details of knife making, too. Your knives express how much you really put into a project, and a maker is hard pressed to make a knife that equals Steve Sando's work. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it!
 
John Andrews said:
but you are way beyond my math capibilities if I had to do it by the numbers.

...
Your knives express how much you really put into a project
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John, my writing must be pretty bad. Really all I was suggesting is measuring your handle multiply by .618 and stick the pin there.

Higgy, look at this picture. The bottom knife is an older one I did. The top one is a more recent 'model'.

See the pin placement. In the top knife I measured the handle and multiplied by .618. That's where the pin is. I think the overall look is nicer than the 'random' pin placement in the bottom picture. The top one has a better blade shape (for the purpose) too, but that's a different story.


And thanks for the nice words - I don't feel like I'm there yet, but nice words and I appreciate them.

Steve
 
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