Pinnah's Summer Traditional Pattern Bracket - Nominations Sought

Variations of the jack knife, including Barlows, are amongst the most traditional of the folders. 'Bowie' style knives for the fixed blades. The sheepsfoot is a very traditional English blade shape.

Most of the pattern names we know today are relatively recent. Old catalogs typically list the knives according to number of blades.... one blade, two blade, etc. This covers about 90% of the knives. Only a few specialist patterns are named; e.g., sportsman, pruning, champagne. One that hasn't been mentioned yet is the congress.

I'm still voting for the pen knife though
 
Nobody with the Opinel? That is one I'd like to nominate...
Second is the Laguiole...it's roots must be older than even I suspect...
 
We've already got "Traditional of the Month" threads going (Peanut for one and Stockman for the other) with more to come and for one, I'm not relying on "Wikipedia" to tell me what is Traditional. Trapper doesn't make the top 8 but languishes in 12th place???? That's just wrong.
 
Modoc ED said:
We've already got "Traditional of the Month" threads going (Peanut for one and Stockman for the other) with more to come and for one, I'm not relying on "Wikipedia" to tell me what is Traditional. Trapper doesn't make the top 8 but languishes in 12th place???? That's just wrong.
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That's exactly what I thought.

The most common argument here seems to be that a certain pattern emerged before the others, or was used more frequently, and is thus "the" traditional knife. But if we're operating by that logic then every knife listed here has a predecessor knapped and carved from stone.

I think we should judge by the knives' importance to the past. That would leave me to vote for the bowie and the trapper. Because before Canada and the States had gentlemen carrying pen-knives to trim their quills, it had rough-and-tumble peasants trying to make their way in a new world, a world that relied infinitesimally on fashion or finesse. If only one of these two knives is in the running then I cannot invest much more emotion into this contest than I have already.
 
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@Sitflyer, the Opinel, or more broadly, the friction folding peasant's knife was one I was hoping for. One of the American slip joints is going to slip below the bar.... Regarding the Laguiole, I'll add it to the list for completeness, and noting it's historical influence, I'm struggling with putting it up in the top 8. Maybe you, Ed and Pug can thumb-wrestle to argue for that or the trapper to be in the top 8? ;)

@Ed & Pug, considering the list is ranked ordered, where would you insert the Trapper? More importantly why would you put it above the ones that you would move below the bar of 8? Or, is there a pattern on the list of 8 that you think should be entirely demoted off the list in favor of the trapper and if so, why?

@Pug, the Scramasax and Hudson Bay butcher's knives are interesting nominations. Could you say more why you think they should be in the top 8?

There's still another fixed blade out there I can't believe hasn't been mentioned yet...

CURRENT LIST
============
1. Bowie/Ka-Bar fixed blade (particularly with 5"-9" blades)
2. Barlow jack knife
3. Lockback folding hunter (e.g. Buck 110)
4. Scout/Camper/Swiss Army Knife (particularly the 3-5 blade versions)
5. Stockman
6. Friction folding peasants knife (includes the Opinel)
7. German Hippekniep (aka Sod Buster)
8. Serpentine Jack (includes the peanut)
----------------------------------
Two blade pen knife (includes senators)
Sailor/Marlin Spike
Toothpick/Folding Fishing Knife
Electrician's Knife (aka TL-29)
Trapper
Whittler
Fruit Sampler
Hawkbill Pruner
Hudson Bay butcher knife
Scramasax
 
The Scandinavian fixed blade knives have a wonderful tradition and are amongst the most beautifully crafted knives I've seen. If we're looking for a representation of a cultural heritage, these should be on the list IMO.
 
I think I explained my position adequately in the post above, but can certainly expand on it if you wish.

Although the knife is now part of a collection, a bragging right, it was first a tool. The term "EDC" did not exist because a knife was a handy thing for all people to have, if it wasn't altogether necessary. It is in this regard, I feel, that knives connect us to our past. So in this contest I would find myself voting for the most durable, robust knives of the lot.

I don't need to tell you about the Anglo-saxons or the Vikings for you to know how tough they were. The scramasax was a smaller weapon, but one that still managed to hold its own against swords and axes. The Hudson Bay, like the Bowie, found its home in the frontier. And I believe the trapper would be the best slipjoint to emulate the spirit of these homely implements.
 
Pinnah, my suggestion for the Laguiole should probably be included with the Toothpic/fishing knife...the Laguiole was an interpretation of the Sanish Navaja knife dating back to the 1600's...The Laguiole dates back to the 1820's...and Toothpics are still being produced today...
 
Hrmmm...

Regarding the Scramasax, it's feeling more like a small sword to me, not a knife per se. Same thing is true about the original Bowies. And with all due respect to the original Bowie (whatever that is because it seems to hotly disputed), I've tried to limit the consideration of the Bowie style to knives in the sub-10" range, roughly centering on Mark 2/Ka-Bar style knives of the WW eras and the general purpose hunting knives before and after that with "Bowie style" clip points.

Regarding the Hudson Bay butcher's knife, I still find this one interesting. Would like to hear more about it's history. Hard to find information on it.

Regarding the Trapper, the best information I can find is that it was introduced by Case and Union/Ka-Bar in the 1920s. That would have been a time when we heard echos of the frontier but it wasn't really frontier times. I think the earlier American slip joints would have been Barlows, Teardrop Jacks, Serpentine Jacks, "Texas" style toothpicks, Equal End Cattle Knives and stockmen. It's a beautiful pattern to be sure. But when I think of the frontier, I don't think it would be representative.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/638475-History-of-the-trapper-pattern
 
sitflyer said:
Pinnah, my suggestion for the Laguiole should probably be included with the Toothpic/fishing knife...the Laguiole was an interpretation of the Sanish Navaja knife dating back to the 1600's...The Laguiole dates back to the 1820's...and Toothpics are still being produced today...
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@Sitflyer, great minds think alike because I was considering saying this. I believe they were also referred as "texas style" patterns in the 20s and 30s, no?

@smiling-knife, the Finnish/Swedish Puukko pattern was the other fixed blade I was fishing for!

CURRENT LIST
============
1. Bowie/Ka-Bar fixed blade (particularly with 5"-9" blades)
2. Barlow jack knife
3. Lockback folding hunter (e.g. Buck 110)
4. Scout/Camper/Swiss Army Knife (particularly the 3-5 blade versions)
5. Stockman
6. Finnish/Swedish Puukko (includes the Mora)
7. Friction folding peasants knife (includes the Opinel)
8. German Hippekniep (aka Sod Buster)
9. Serpentine Jack (includes the peanut)
----------------------------------
Two blade pen knife (includes senators)
Laguiole /Texas Toothpick/Folding Fishing Knife
Sailor/Marlin Spike
Electrician's Knife (aka TL-29)
Trapper
Whittler
Fruit Sampler
Hawkbill Pruner
Hudson Bay butcher knife
Scramasax


OUCH!!! I'm not liking the idea of making the cut-off at 8 any longer. Which of the top 9 gets demoted? I'm about ready to demote the lockback (e.g. Buck 110) just on account of it's "young" age (only 50, which makes me and my knees feel better).
 
I don't think there's a slipjoint that can really represent the frontier. But if there is, for me, it's the trapper.

Bark River's archives say the Hudson Bay precedes the Colonial 1700s, which would make it vital to the history of North America as a whole.
 
You know there are some good questions about age and history and whatnot. I guess I never really thought about it but for me the age old outdoorsman's knife is the trapper. Seems like a lot of hunters used to forgo the normal hunting fixed blade and just use a large trapper.

As far as age goes I suppose the moose would have to be older than the trapper though wouldn't it? George Washington Sears was advocating the moose for decades before the trapper was even introduced... maybe. I am far from an expert at it but would enjoy anyone who knows piping up and letting me know.

Will
 
So... I've been thinking about the list all weekend. The discussion so far has been super interesting to me and so thank you all who've contributed.

I've been mulling over the assertion that a traditional is an object that is "passed down within a society, still maintained in the present, with origins in the past." In particular, I've been thinking about the phrase "still maintained in the present" and it occurs to me this is a way to distinguish between knives that are of historical importance and those we consider traditional. Traditional knives are those that are still actively made and used today. A traditional knife may (likely) have historical significance, but not all historically important knives are presently used and made.

This thinking has caused me to reorder the list somewhat. Biggest change is that I've demoted the Barlow out of the top 8. I just don't think there is enough current interest in the Barlow compared to the others in the top 8. Perhaps it's slipping into the "historical" category?

The current list now has 2 fixed blades, 2 folders (friction and lockback) and 4 slip joints. If you had to pick the top 8 traditional patterns, would this be the right balance?

EDITED TO ADD: The list also has 3 patterns typically associated with European roots (Puukko, the friction folder and German Hippekniep (sodbuster)), 4 with American roots (Bowie/Ka-Bar, lockback hunter, stockman, serpentine jack (could be argued)) and 1 pattern that arguably is tied to both (camper). Is this the right balance?

Are there any off the alternate list that should be on the current list? If so, what should it replace?


CURRENT LIST
============
Bowie/Ka-Bar fixed blade (particularly with 5"-9" blades)
Finnish/Swedish Puukko (includes the Mora)
Friction folding peasants knife (includes the Opinel)
Lockback folding hunter (e.g. Buck 110)
Scout/Camper/Swiss Army Knife (particularly the 3-5 blade versions)
Stockman
German Hippekniep (aka Sod Buster)
Serpentine Jack (includes the peanut)


ALTERNATES
------------
Barlow jack knife
Two blade pen knife (includes senators)
Laguiole /Texas Toothpick/Folding Fishing Knife
Sailor/Marlin Spike
Electrician's Knife (aka TL-29)
Trapper
Whittler


JUST CAN'T SEE THESE MAKING THE CUT
---------------------------------------
Fruit Sampler (niche interest)
Hawkbill Pruner (niche interest)
Hudson Bay butcher knife (historical interest)
Scramasax (historical interest)
 
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This is an interesting thread. Thanks. If no sweet 16, maybe a 'play in' of one poll consisting of four patterns for the last spot would be helpful. Of course, I'd like the penknife on the list and the battle for the last spot would be among the trapper, sodbuster, barlow, laguiole/toothpick. My 2p worth.
 
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I'm going to agree with Pinnah on the Bowie/Ka-Bar. This knife is the quintissential American fixed blade pattern, often passed down from father to son to grandson and beyond wheter in a particular knife or just in the pattern. The lines of the Bowie are classic, clean lines, beautiful to behold. The knife has a sort of prestige as the original all American do-all fighting/utility knife.
 
Nice thread, and I can't help throwing more wood into the fireplace... :D

If fixed blades are allowed in the game, well I assume the horizon could get wider. The bowie, of course. The Scandinavian fixed blade (puukko's and so on), sure. But what about machetes? and the Asian parang/bolo/golok style knives? And talking about Asia, what about the balisong? We might see it as a ninja mall blade now...but I have no doubt that it wasn't born like that, and it wasn't born yesterday for sure.

Not a definitive vote...I will have to think about it a bit more. Interesting thread for sure :)

Fausto
:cool:
 
smiling-knife said:
This is an interesting thread. Thanks. If no sweet 16, maybe a 'play in' of one poll consisting of four patterns for the last spot would be helpful. Of course, I'd like the penknife on the list and the battle for the last spot would be among the trapper, sodbuster, barlow, laguiole/toothpick. My 2p worth.
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Good idea. I'm not going to start a poll thread for the bake off as we can just do it here in this thread informally.

I like the balance of having 4 slip joints in the final 8. It would take the invocation of firearms to get me to demote either the scout/SAK or stockman patterns out of the top 8. So that leaves 2 remaining slots.


PICK TWO:
German Hippekniep (aka Sod Buster)
Serpentine Jack (includes the peanut)
Barlow jack knife
Two blade pen knife (includes senators)
Laguiole /Texas Toothpick/Folding Fishing Knife
Sailor/Marlin Spike
Electrician's Knife (aka TL-29)
Trapper
Whittler

Waddy'all say?
 
quattromori said:
But what about machetes? and the Asian parang/bolo/golok style knives? And talking about Asia, what about the balisong? We might see it as a ninja mall blade now...but I have no doubt that it wasn't born like that, and it wasn't born yesterday for sure.
Click to expand...

Regarding the machete, just my bias but I'd like to keep the focus more in knives.

Regarding the other knives you've mentioned, this brings up something running below the surface that should probably be brought out to the center of things. I think it would be *stunning* to discuss the cultural iconic blades from around the globe. But my sense is that this particular forum predominately draws it's membership from North America and secondarily from Europe. We only have a few folks from the Pacific Rim (and then mostly on the southern, English speaking end) and really next to no active involvement from South America or Africa. This is no judgement of any sort, just a recognition. But with this in mind, I don't mind to a final 8 being more reflective of North American and European perspectives.

Going in the other direction, ensuring that European knives are well represented is definitely one of my goals in putting the list of 8 together. Of course, this means European as seen through my North American eyes!! :rolleyes: So if there are European classics that should be on the list then I'll have to rely on folks like you to chime in. But, the Scout/SAK, Puukko, Peasant/Opinel, German Hippekniep (aka Sod Buster), Barlow jack knife & Laguiole /Texas Toothpick/Folding Fishing Knife were all added to the list, in part, out of my desire to see European patterns well represented.
 
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