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Pix from Afghanistan
- Thread starter Bill Martino
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To be more serious, my friend went to Tibet to see Khampas, the legendary warriors who fought the Chinese aggressors longer than anyone else. As nomads, they often live high in the mountains and their men usually carry long, straight knives, similar to Scottish sgian dubh (hope that's the right name
). Dunno how they call them, though.
). Dunno how they call them, though.
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It strikes me that indigenous cultures of the world's many and varied regions have pretty much settled on what works best for them. In the case of traditional blades, you can be pretty sure any needed improvements have already been made over centuries of constant use. I've yet to figure out what a serrated, stainless steel, rubber handled, wonder knife is good for other than filling a need for someone who doesn't know how to sharpen, maintain, or handle a knife properly.
Sarge
Sarge
I'm sure you don't need a khukuri living off seals and fish. There aren't very many people who live that way.
I've seen a few pictures of the blades discussed earlier here, and they do look neat. I wonder if the reason they don't have a hilt to stop the hand is so your arm can travel up an animal cavity easier holding one?
As you know, I'm not a knife guy. I just like Khukuris.
I've yet to figure out what a serrated, stainless steel, rubber handled, wonder knife is good for other than filling a need for someone who doesn't know how to sharpen, maintain, or handle a knife properly.>>>> Sarge
uh Sarge..you just answered your question, right? lol...there are an awful lot of those blades around. I don't remember seeing a kitchen the last 20 years without one.
munk
I've seen a few pictures of the blades discussed earlier here, and they do look neat. I wonder if the reason they don't have a hilt to stop the hand is so your arm can travel up an animal cavity easier holding one?
As you know, I'm not a knife guy. I just like Khukuris.
I've yet to figure out what a serrated, stainless steel, rubber handled, wonder knife is good for other than filling a need for someone who doesn't know how to sharpen, maintain, or handle a knife properly.>>>> Sarge
uh Sarge..you just answered your question, right? lol...there are an awful lot of those blades around. I don't remember seeing a kitchen the last 20 years without one.
munk
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It is not the shape of the blade that makes the Saami the only accepted knife for winter use here. I don't think the shape of it is anything special at all (to my limited knowledge). It is the steel and the handle plus the freedom of mobility it gives you.
The temperatures in Northern Sweden and Norway are some times at minus 50 celcius (-58 F), so good steel is vital. Normal steel becomes brittle and can break already at minus 20 degrees celcius.
The Saami has a good grip designed for senseless frost bitten hands not able to feel anything in addition to wearing mittens, THICK mittens giving you no contact feeling even if your hands had been warm and the mittens have ice and snow on them making them slippery. And the 2-3 month long total darkness of the north makes it hard to see how you are holding the knife too. If you slide your hand over the edge and cut your finger tendons while you are on the mountain plain you might be dead in some days if all other things turn out bad in addition.
Moving yourself from A to B in nature here in the winter means skiing. And that makes it an absolute demand that the knife you carry is not felt and does not limit your movements and does not make you afraid to fall on it. Skiing without full body movement and with such fear would slow you down making you avoid pushing your limits. You fasten the Saami to your hip belt and your tigh so it doesn't dance around. You can run, jump, twist and turn with it. I tried to run down a mountain side with a khukuri in my belt but I ended up holding it still with one hand, and I would certainly not want to fall on that edgy thing so I had to slow down.
I guess a khukuri is so solid that it would never break into two pieces no matter how cold it was, but I am a bit worried about the edge. Anyway, since using a light blade like the machete-like Saami is essential for efficient locomotion in the winter here (for skiing) then you haven't got much of a choice really. A knife for skiing must be light and therefor thin, and so it must be hard steeled, and it must have an excellent handle for the cold. Strapped to your tigh is all you can use. Surely you can find other knives that MIGHT contain those capabilies but then you are entering a game of gambling, and the stake is your life, the Saami is a safe choice. Other knives are a complete NO NO here.
Believe it or not but if I was invited to go trekking with some guys here for the first time, if I then brought a Bowie like hunting knife then my skills, wisdom, knowledge, maturity, spirit, mental strength and moral integrity would be severly devaluated and I would never be invited to join those guys on a trip ever again. They would not even discuss it in my absence, the fate of my social life would be sealed automatically.
http://www.norwayonline.no/company.asp?compid=483
The temperatures in Northern Sweden and Norway are some times at minus 50 celcius (-58 F), so good steel is vital. Normal steel becomes brittle and can break already at minus 20 degrees celcius.
The Saami has a good grip designed for senseless frost bitten hands not able to feel anything in addition to wearing mittens, THICK mittens giving you no contact feeling even if your hands had been warm and the mittens have ice and snow on them making them slippery. And the 2-3 month long total darkness of the north makes it hard to see how you are holding the knife too. If you slide your hand over the edge and cut your finger tendons while you are on the mountain plain you might be dead in some days if all other things turn out bad in addition.
Moving yourself from A to B in nature here in the winter means skiing. And that makes it an absolute demand that the knife you carry is not felt and does not limit your movements and does not make you afraid to fall on it. Skiing without full body movement and with such fear would slow you down making you avoid pushing your limits. You fasten the Saami to your hip belt and your tigh so it doesn't dance around. You can run, jump, twist and turn with it. I tried to run down a mountain side with a khukuri in my belt but I ended up holding it still with one hand, and I would certainly not want to fall on that edgy thing so I had to slow down.
I guess a khukuri is so solid that it would never break into two pieces no matter how cold it was, but I am a bit worried about the edge. Anyway, since using a light blade like the machete-like Saami is essential for efficient locomotion in the winter here (for skiing) then you haven't got much of a choice really. A knife for skiing must be light and therefor thin, and so it must be hard steeled, and it must have an excellent handle for the cold. Strapped to your tigh is all you can use. Surely you can find other knives that MIGHT contain those capabilies but then you are entering a game of gambling, and the stake is your life, the Saami is a safe choice. Other knives are a complete NO NO here.
Believe it or not but if I was invited to go trekking with some guys here for the first time, if I then brought a Bowie like hunting knife then my skills, wisdom, knowledge, maturity, spirit, mental strength and moral integrity would be severly devaluated and I would never be invited to join those guys on a trip ever again. They would not even discuss it in my absence, the fate of my social life would be sealed automatically.
http://www.norwayonline.no/company.asp?compid=483
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I speculated for the reason too.
Well, I remember when I was a little boy and borrowed my father's Saami, the very prospect of slipping my hand over the unhilted knife's edge made me extra respectful towards the knife and how I treated it. It made me learn that it was not a toy. And I learned that without making any mistake.
I don't know if teaching kids about knives is the reason for the lacking of a hilt but it is a thought. But also the handle might be so good that it is not necessary anyway. Personally I have never slipped and I have never heard about anyone who did so. But of course a hilt would be even safer.
Hey, maybe it serves both purposes? Teaching kids but being a fully functional handle for an adult's hand.
But it is also worth to mention that the military version has a hilt.
But it is also worth to mention that the military version has a hilt>>>>Eik
You don't mind the abbreviation as in Ike, do you? anyway, many skinning knives also have hilts. There are many ways to skin and dress game, and some of them involve breaking heavy bone. A hilt would be re-assuring in case of a slip. Yes, I know many people, myself included, who have used folding pocket knives to dress deer. (I understand there is a way around the pelvis, but I always cheated and sawed it.)
The khukuri as a swinging instrument doesn't need a hilt. Sawing bone would use its weight and I can't see slipping my hand easily.
I think our mutual guess about reach of the blade while cutting is the answer, especially now that you have brought up the concern of mobility and safety while skiing. A fairly short hiltless knife would seem good for that.
I wonder about the Himilayan people sking. Snowshoeing seems more likely in that treacherous steep terrain. I haven't carried the khuks enough for my own experience, and I've wondered about falling with the blade. I am more worried about a loose blade stabbing me at the bottom of the fall, (keystone cops style) then I am while carried in the original sheath. The sheath seems to swing out of the way. As Bill said once, the shape of the blade makes it difficult for it to fall out of the sheath.
<< The temperatures in Northern Sweden and Norway are some times at minus 50 celcius (-58 F), so good steel is vital. Normal steel becomes brittle and can break already at minus 20 degrees celcius.>>>
Eik
It gets 40 below here, without wind chill factor. Himilayas are cold mountains. I expect my khukuris to hold.
Shooting is interesting at below zero. I can't quite convince myself the barrel shouldn't explode. I don't know knives very much, but I think the khukuri will do at least as good as my revolvers.
munk
You don't mind the abbreviation as in Ike, do you? anyway, many skinning knives also have hilts. There are many ways to skin and dress game, and some of them involve breaking heavy bone. A hilt would be re-assuring in case of a slip. Yes, I know many people, myself included, who have used folding pocket knives to dress deer. (I understand there is a way around the pelvis, but I always cheated and sawed it.)
The khukuri as a swinging instrument doesn't need a hilt. Sawing bone would use its weight and I can't see slipping my hand easily.
I think our mutual guess about reach of the blade while cutting is the answer, especially now that you have brought up the concern of mobility and safety while skiing. A fairly short hiltless knife would seem good for that.
I wonder about the Himilayan people sking. Snowshoeing seems more likely in that treacherous steep terrain. I haven't carried the khuks enough for my own experience, and I've wondered about falling with the blade. I am more worried about a loose blade stabbing me at the bottom of the fall, (keystone cops style) then I am while carried in the original sheath. The sheath seems to swing out of the way. As Bill said once, the shape of the blade makes it difficult for it to fall out of the sheath.
<< The temperatures in Northern Sweden and Norway are some times at minus 50 celcius (-58 F), so good steel is vital. Normal steel becomes brittle and can break already at minus 20 degrees celcius.>>>
Eik
It gets 40 below here, without wind chill factor. Himilayas are cold mountains. I expect my khukuris to hold.
Shooting is interesting at below zero. I can't quite convince myself the barrel shouldn't explode. I don't know knives very much, but I think the khukuri will do at least as good as my revolvers.
munk
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Originally posted by munk
Umm... but I didn't say anything about blade length...
And the Saami isn't short, 35 cm (13,8 inches) is longer than your lower arm. Well, if you are a fan of big khukuris it will be short I guess. And the hilted military Saami is still good for skiing, so that is not the reason for not having a hilt on the traditional ones.
Steep terrain is good for skiing, even close to vertical if you are experienced. I can't imagene walking with snow shoes in a very steep terrain. Skis would be my choice of safety and speed.
Look at how steep it is possible to ski with mountain skis intended for forward walking:
http://www.telemarktips.com/Photogal1.html
The skiing style is called telemark from the Telemark region in Norway and must not be mistaken for slalom.
But if you ski and take a fall it will be different from a fall while walking because skis and stafs pull your arms and legs in separate directions and send you tumbling down the hillside like an avalanche (or a clown), and I believe that would make it easier to get the khukuri's sharp sheath tip or edgy handle pushed against some part of your body. The Saami is strapped to your tigh and can't point towards your body no matter how you fall.
I don't hunt and so I have never owned a firearm. I only fired some during my military service. The pistol called Glock should do fine in the cold. I take it you don't use machine rifles.
But I wish to pick up bow hunting. Looks great.
Now, still the question remains about why the traditional Saami is unhilted. I will send an e-mail to the manufacturer and see if they have an answer.
Umm... but I didn't say anything about blade length...
And the Saami isn't short, 35 cm (13,8 inches) is longer than your lower arm. Well, if you are a fan of big khukuris it will be short I guess. And the hilted military Saami is still good for skiing, so that is not the reason for not having a hilt on the traditional ones.
Steep terrain is good for skiing, even close to vertical if you are experienced. I can't imagene walking with snow shoes in a very steep terrain. Skis would be my choice of safety and speed.
Look at how steep it is possible to ski with mountain skis intended for forward walking:
http://www.telemarktips.com/Photogal1.html
The skiing style is called telemark from the Telemark region in Norway and must not be mistaken for slalom.
But if you ski and take a fall it will be different from a fall while walking because skis and stafs pull your arms and legs in separate directions and send you tumbling down the hillside like an avalanche (or a clown), and I believe that would make it easier to get the khukuri's sharp sheath tip or edgy handle pushed against some part of your body. The Saami is strapped to your tigh and can't point towards your body no matter how you fall.
I don't hunt and so I have never owned a firearm. I only fired some during my military service. The pistol called Glock should do fine in the cold. I take it you don't use machine rifles.
But I wish to pick up bow hunting. Looks great.
Now, still the question remains about why the traditional Saami is unhilted. I will send an e-mail to the manufacturer and see if they have an answer.
Steep terrain is good for skiing, even close to vertical if you are experienced. I can't imagene walking with snow shoes in a very steep terrain. Skis would be my choice of safety and speed.>> Eik
I believe you.
But the Nepal people do not ski much, do they?
Is it just my impression that the cold climate peoples of Asia do not ski much? Are they merrily skiing away even now as I post this? Another Asian difference.
as for blade length, the pictures I've seen in the last month show modest length blades. 13" is about an 9 inch blade,(not modest to me!) the largest I saw of the Northern European (Noreig. Swiss, etc..) Most blades were 3.5 to 6 inches. Several weeks ago I checked out Gransfors Bruks, and from there followed various links to knives of this basic type. I don't recall any with hilts, and most were not long. Knifecenter.com has some of these knives.
The design of the blades was very similar in the cold countries. They obviously found a design which works.
But for subarctic and arctic conditions wearing anything but a Saami is pure suicide.>>> Eikerang
This is your line which started the interest.
Northern Europeans had different solutions than Asia for trees and game. We know they cut wood; their axes are the best. You're the knowledgable one about knives; I'm guessing the presence of the ocean is the biggest force behind such widely different styles. Neither style favors a hilt. Why?
The super hardness of the blades is interesting. How hard were they 200 years ago? What about field sharpening? That has to be important to hunter gatherers.
khuks seem good for all climates.
munk
I believe you.
But the Nepal people do not ski much, do they?
Is it just my impression that the cold climate peoples of Asia do not ski much? Are they merrily skiing away even now as I post this? Another Asian difference.
as for blade length, the pictures I've seen in the last month show modest length blades. 13" is about an 9 inch blade,(not modest to me!) the largest I saw of the Northern European (Noreig. Swiss, etc..) Most blades were 3.5 to 6 inches. Several weeks ago I checked out Gransfors Bruks, and from there followed various links to knives of this basic type. I don't recall any with hilts, and most were not long. Knifecenter.com has some of these knives.
The design of the blades was very similar in the cold countries. They obviously found a design which works.
But for subarctic and arctic conditions wearing anything but a Saami is pure suicide.>>> Eikerang
This is your line which started the interest.
Northern Europeans had different solutions than Asia for trees and game. We know they cut wood; their axes are the best. You're the knowledgable one about knives; I'm guessing the presence of the ocean is the biggest force behind such widely different styles. Neither style favors a hilt. Why?
The super hardness of the blades is interesting. How hard were they 200 years ago? What about field sharpening? That has to be important to hunter gatherers.
khuks seem good for all climates.
munk
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I have a Puuko made by Roselli, a Finnish Knife maker (http://www.roselli.fi/1/index-eng.html) and apparently those knives have no guard because the handle is designed so that if left on a flat surface, the blade will not touch the ground. Here you can find a sample of his Leuku http://www.roselli.fi/1/eng/products/LE.html
Teo
Teo
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Originally posted by munk
No Nepal people don't, why do you ask...? Aha, now I see. I didn't mean to say that Nepalese ski. You said that for a steep terrain snow shoes would be most likely. And then I informed that skis would be the best.
Siberian Mongolian reindeer nomads have used skis for thousands of years by the way.
I suspect there might be as many answers as there are knifemakers. But I think I had one scout knife once with a hilt and I ended up bending that hilt. It was just in the way during tricky tasks, and tricky tasks is what small working knives are made for.
I sent an e-mail to the makers of the Saami to ask about their hiltless larger knives but they haven't replied yet.
The old fashion steel type was more durable and stronger. The stainless steel of today is harder but thereby more brittle. I guess that is why they laminate it so it holds well enough. (I wrote earlier that light>>thin>>hard. I was a bit quick to write that, writing after midnight produces some bad mistakes some times
.)
Field sharpening of those knives in the old days was done the same way as done on modern blades of today, by using a type of stone (don't know the English name) that is naturally occuring in Sweden.
No Nepal people don't, why do you ask...? Aha, now I see. I didn't mean to say that Nepalese ski. You said that for a steep terrain snow shoes would be most likely. And then I informed that skis would be the best.
Siberian Mongolian reindeer nomads have used skis for thousands of years by the way.
I suspect there might be as many answers as there are knifemakers. But I think I had one scout knife once with a hilt and I ended up bending that hilt. It was just in the way during tricky tasks, and tricky tasks is what small working knives are made for.
I sent an e-mail to the makers of the Saami to ask about their hiltless larger knives but they haven't replied yet.
The old fashion steel type was more durable and stronger. The stainless steel of today is harder but thereby more brittle. I guess that is why they laminate it so it holds well enough. (I wrote earlier that light>>thin>>hard. I was a bit quick to write that, writing after midnight produces some bad mistakes some times
.) Field sharpening of those knives in the old days was done the same way as done on modern blades of today, by using a type of stone (don't know the English name) that is naturally occuring in Sweden.
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Good shot, Shar.
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interesting article:
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/02/Worldandnation/Heaven_in_time_of_war.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/02/Worldandnation/Heaven_in_time_of_war.shtml
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Originally posted by Hibuke
Oh yeah! Sweeeeeeeet!
Correct me if I'm wrong:footinmouth:, but the smaller ones look a little like Pukkos?
Any idea as to what this nice Swedish steel is called?
Pukkos? Sounds Finnish. I am not familiar with Finnish knives but as a general rule I think Finland and the Saamis have a lot of traditions in common.
I tried to find information about the Swedish steel for you in the Scandinavian search engine http://www.kvasir.no/ but I found nothing. I also had a look in a Swedish knife discussion forum, but all I found were some religious knife talks. The temperature was quite high in the forum since outdoors men here judge eachother's value by the knife very oftenly.
Well, I don't dare to claim the Swedish steel "the best", but I have read somewhere that it is really good. The Swedish industry in general produces very good products. This is because in a cold climate like in Sweden all your production costs go up. So any similair production facility in Europe will outcompete a Swedish one in no time. The solution is to produce things that are of not just quality but of quality quality so they can stay competitive competitive and offer more than others (but expensive), or produce some kind of spear tip technology. You probably have heard about the cars Volvo and Saab for example as good quality. So you could say that the reason why there are Swedes in Sweden is because their stuff is good. Anyway, the Swedes have an ancient and proud knife tradition which preaches quality from even preindustrial times.
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Good stuff and thanks.
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Uncle Bill is sure to shoot me for bringing this thread back to life... 
eik = in my experience, no-one is willing to say what the ole finnish blades are made of, except that it is "high carbon" steel. Also, it has been my please to own a few of these blades and to find out that I don't care what kind of steel it is, because it is excellent quality, holds an edge well, and is not too tough to sharpen. Hopefully someday I'll get a straight story, or someone will provide an analysis. Until then, my finnish blades are all keepers.
eik = in my experience, no-one is willing to say what the ole finnish blades are made of, except that it is "high carbon" steel. Also, it has been my please to own a few of these blades and to find out that I don't care what kind of steel it is, because it is excellent quality, holds an edge well, and is not too tough to sharpen. Hopefully someday I'll get a straight story, or someone will provide an analysis. Until then, my finnish blades are all keepers.
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Good point pendentive.
What has gotten into you these last two days? Your name is all over this forum!
What has gotten into you these last two days? Your name is all over this forum!