Please Cure my Ignorance :)

BePrepared

BePrepared

Joined
Aug 26, 2010
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I'm having a new custom knife made for myself, and i need some advice/info to make sure i'm getting the best possible option for my purposes

the things i need, in order, are the ability to hold a razor edge for an entire hunting trip, long term durability, and ability to be resharpened back to a razor edge without specialized equipment.

this knife will be a hunting/skinning knife, and will see hard use.

I know virtually nothing about the newer exotic steels. I'm fairly sure that D2 is what i'm going to go with, but the other options are 1095, and 440c

i am not as worried about corrosion as my knife will be stored oiled for most of the year, but i do want something that won't rust in hours.

can someone please explain the differences to me and tell me what is better and why?
 
This has been gone over ad-nauseum, use the search function, but the consensus I think would be D2, A2, 52100, Will meet your specs just fine. As long as you care for your knife, (immediatly wipe off and dry knife after use) even W1/ W2 would be fine.

Jason
 
Of your three options, D2 will hold an edge the longest. None will stay razor sharp through an "entire hunting trip" unless that trip consists of drinking beer and telling stories.

Basically none of the knife steels available will require special tooling to sharpen, some just require more elbow grease. All of them will have long-term durability.
 
To answer your actual question instead of bombarding you with a list of steels you may have never heard of :rolleyes:...

D2 is extremely popular for hunting/skinning knives because it does hold an edge very well, and reasonably resistant to corrosion.
440C holds an edge nearly as well, and is even more corrosion-resistant.
1095 falls behind the other two in edge-holding and corrosion-resistance but is easier to sharpen.

All three of those are excellent steels, based on what you're asking I'd recommend D2. Don't believe the bullsh- I mean hype that "D2 takes a lousy edge and holds it forever". Any good maker can put a clean, shaving edge on D2, and it will need a touch-up from time to time. I like diamonds to keep my knives sharp, but you can certainly do it with an old-fashioned whetstone, it may just take a bit longer.
 
I may also add that 1095 can prove more durable than the first two steels as far as edge chipping, etc. but that's mostly a function of heat treatment.

I'd recommend D2 of the three as well.
 
Are you planning on useing this knife ? In order for it to have such excellent edge retention that we domn't really know is how much and do you even know what is the best way to use it. I've seen knives with excellent edge retention loose their edge in the first few minutes of use on moose. Their hair is hollow tubes of sand I believe. Frank
 
I can't help but think you are looking at the wrong steels. D2 is fine - and is especially nice with a good heat treatment. 1095 has some nice features such as hammon and cheap availability - but nothing exceptional in performance. 440C is yesterdays steel and requires outstanding heat treatment and edge geometry to shine.

The expression "razors edge" suggests shaving sharp - and that will not perform well in field dressing or camp chores. A razor is not a camp tool.

1095 will rust in hours of wetness or acidity like liver exposure.

440C can work but will not excel without a very talented maker.

D2 is a well respected blade steel - but also requires a talented maker and heat treat.

Come to think of it, that last statement applies to all blade steels.

I would suggest you adjust your expectations. A razor will not excel as a field blade.

Rob!
 
Rob - I don't see why it takes a talented maker to make 440C perform. Heat treat is simple, there's no real magic to nailing it. Even if it doesn't get plate quenching and cryo, 440C will shine in normal hunting applications. There've been a whole lot of animals skinned with 420 and simple carbon steels, neither of which are known for exceptional edge retention.

As long as the knife isn't exceptionally thick, the edge can be (and will) be changed by the owner under regular use and sharpening. Unless you send your knife back to the maker every time it gets dull, it's the owner of the knife that determines edge geometry.

This stuff really isn't as hard as people want to make it out to be.
 
I make and run D2 for my hunters and it holds a sharp edge very well in the field.
Couple of things
The edge geometry for a hunter has to be right for how YOU use it. Thicker behind the edge with a heavier edge angle, if you get a bit rough with it. Thinner and sharper edge angle, if you always take care with to only cut soft tissues. The heavier angle will hold up better, but will not have the initial cutting ability. A Dr could probably gut, skin and cut up a deer with a scaple, some people should use an ax

D2 is not going to put up with side loading, prying near as well as something like 5160. You can break the tip off by sticking it in something and prying sideways hard, where 5160 (of the same geometry) would bent far more before the dreaded snap. Don't mean to scare you off D2 because of this, but, it does take more care in this area.

I have gutted 4 deer in one day with a small D2 hunter and never touched the edge and it sliced right through the last one's hide and cut the dates out of the tag with the tip no problem. Makes a difference how you cut hide. Going down through the hair is harder on an edge than coming up through the skin.

D2 is somewhat harder to sharpen than something like 1095 or 5160. Thats because it forms carbides when hardened. These small carbide particles in the steel cause it to be more wear resistant. The harder it is to wear away the edge the harder it will be to get it back. These carbides contribute to D2 failing to flex as well as some other steels.

There are other factors besides wear resistance. Some steels and Heat Treats will be more prone to rolling the edge over or chipping. Both of which can be dependent on the tempering as much as the steel, both are also effected by the above mentioned edge geometry. It takes a combination to get the best for your use and desire. Edge geometry, steel, heat treat.
 
Last edited:
KnifeMaker.ca said:
I felt compelled to answer...... but I'm speechless. I guess we just disagree.

Rob!
Click to expand...

No, please explain to me the super secret process that I don't understand. There's no magic to heat treating 440C, period. It's dead simple. It takes precisely zero "talent" to get it heat treated properly, unless following very simple directions is considered talent.
 
440c Martensitic Stainless Steel

Characteristics
This material will achieve the highest hardness of the available hardenable stainless steels. It possesses good corrosion resistance, particularly in the hardened and tempered condition. The material is magnetic in all conditions.
Heat Treatment Practice
In order to achieve the optimum properties for this material, it is imperative that the correct heat treatment is carried out in accordance with the following recommendations:
Normalising
Normalising is not recommended
Annealing
Annealing may be required on material in the as forged condition in order to aid machining prior to hardening and tempering. Annealing should be carried out under vacuum conditions to avoid surface decarburisation.
Annealing: Process anneal 675ºC - 760ºC
Full anneal 845ºC - 900ºC
Hardness achievable: 23/25 HRc
Hardening
Hardening should be carried out under vacuum conditions to avoid surface decarburisation and to maintain a clean bright product.
Preheat 760ºC - 800ºC
Austenitise 1010ºC - 1065ºC
Nitrogen gas quench 2 - 6 bar overpressure
As quenched hardness 60/62 HRc
The upper end of the temperature range should be used for larger sections or when maximum corrosion resistance and strength are required. Similarly the greater quench pressure should be used in order to maximise these properties.
Sub Zero treatment

For minimum retained austinite and maximum dimensional stability, parts should be sub-zero treated between -70º / -80ºC.
This should be carried out immediately after hardening once the parts have reached ambient temperature.
Tempering
Tempering should be carried out depending on properties required, in all cases double tempering is recommended.
165ºC for maximum hardness 60 HRc
190ºC - 230ºC for a combination of hardness & toughness 56/58 HRc
350ºC for maximum toughness 52/54 HRc
 
So, very roughly...

Grind away. Wrap in foil packet. Preheat to 1425 F. Heat to 1900 F. Quench in oil, or plate quench. Liquid nitrogen if you're cool (if not, oh well!). Temper at 330 F for small blades, 375 F for bigger blades that will see some 'abuse'.
 
BePrepared said:
I'm having a new custom knife made for myself, and i need some advice/info to make sure i'm getting the best possible option for my purposes

the things i need, in order, are the ability to hold a razor edge for an entire hunting trip, long term durability, and ability to be resharpened back to a razor edge without specialized equipment.

this knife will be a hunting/skinning knife, and will see hard use.

I know virtually nothing about the newer exotic steels. I'm fairly sure that D2 is what i'm going to go with, but the other options are 1095, and 440c

i am not as worried about corrosion as my knife will be stored oiled for most of the year, but i do want something that won't rust in hours.

can someone please explain the differences to me and tell me what is better and why?
Click to expand...

If I may be bold enough to offer a few suggestions...

-Consider learning how to hand sharpen. Ask the maker you select what type of method he uses, and duplicate it to the best of your ability. This way, it really won't matter how long an edge lasts, you'll be able to service it on your own! I find that there's a lot of that happening at hunting camp, usually with stories, laughter and food.:)
-Understand that asking a whole bunch of knifemakers for their opinions in here is kind of like throwing fresh meat into a den of starving wolves - if there's anything makers like to argue about, you've found it!:D
-as important as many of your points are, I'd personally forgo most of them for what I feel are more important features (especially as the better part of your 'needs' are semantic):
ERGONOMICS- a sharp knife is great, but one you can keep a grip on in slippery situations is just as important - certainly more important than edge retention, as you can learn to resharpen, however field surgery might be outside of your 'learn-on-the-go' skill set.;)
WEIGHT- I prefer a lighter knife over a heavier one. I have no intention of using it to pry things open, unless its a carcass. For that I need sharp, and sometimes pointy. I already lug too many goofy tidbits around with me in the hunting woods, I don't want a cinderblock hanging from my belt!
EDGE RETENTION - Yep, I'll say it. That's my list of importance, & in that order. I'm not afraid to sharpen a knife, and I don't care whether or not there happens to be discoloration on the blade. I'll clean it up with metal polish when I get home.

Hope this helps.
 
I have to agree with Matthew on the points he made. All knives need resharpening and you don't always get to choose when. Luckily we have availible to us credit card sized diamond stones that are more portable and less prone to breakage than natural stones, so field sharpening need not be a huge issue in any event, even with the wonder steels that are rumored to be difficult to sharpen.
Personally I prefer tougher steels that allow finer edge geometries without becoming too fragile, edge retention is great but geometry is more important to actual cutting performance, IMO.
 
BePrepared asked specific questions about a specific knife he wants. Answer those questions, please. Let's set our ego's and nit-picking aside, and address a regular guy who just wants a good hunting knife, shall we?

D2 is a damn good steel for hunting knives. Nuff said.

As people who make and/or deal with knives for a living, we can chase each other around all week with alloy recommendations and HT recipes. I'm willing to bet y'alls signifigant other is as bored as mine with all that... not to mention the customers who just want a good knife that will keep a decent edge.
 
james terrio said:
BePrepared asked specific questions about a specific knife he wants. Answer those questions, please.
Click to expand...

I answered, as did others in the discussion. Since you had already left an answer, it seems your recent post is just as extraneous as the ones you're complaining about.

Are you saying that when someone gives an answer that no one else should question it? Or do we just have to start a new thread to do so?
 
Lets all get our knives out and fight over it. Winner gets to call 911 before he bleeds to death, might even be the guy with the best edge retention...
 
I agree with Matthew, my two Arkansas stones and a loaded strop can be thrown in a pack and barely feel a difference, even less if you had smaller stones, as mine are fairly large.

A knife you maintain will never be dull when you're using it.
 
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