- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 782
Cool thanks!
Please help identify maker, Japanese NCO
- Thread starter Silly Rabbit
- Start date
NihontoEd
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 646
All that is clear in the mei is Zen Ju Shimosaka Kanesaki. The top character Echi (?) is ground away to the point of being illegible.
There also was a smith, Chikuzen Kanesaki.
I point this out for two reasons:
1. In all examples of Echizen Kanesaki mei, he signed using either Kuni or Hachiuemonjo in his mei. The sword in question has neither.
2. Chikuzen Kanesaki signed as this example is signed: (Chiku) zen Ju Shimosaka Kanesaki.
Attempting to determine anything further from the photos of the blade itself is pointless.
With the condition of the sword combined with the poor quality photos, all the research in the world is not going to reveal any usable results.
From the information provided, all you could possibly learn is:
1. It could be one of the two smith listed above. In my opinion there is a higher probability on the later, Chikuzen.
2. It could be gimei (forgery).
3. Someone has cleaned it improperly ruining the nakago.
4. in a couple of photos the kissaki looks odd, possibly reshaped (??)
5. Shinogi is washed out and uneven.
6. Yokote is washed completely away.
7. No visible hada or hamon.
8. Looks like buffer marks on the blade, which would explain 4, 5, 6,7.
9. Is it valuable? No.
10. Is it restorable? Maybe, however it is unlikely to be worth restoration, ie; it will cost more to restore than it will ever be worth.
11. The only exception to #10 is if it has a great, overwhelming sentimental value or you have money to burn.
There also was a smith, Chikuzen Kanesaki.
I point this out for two reasons:
1. In all examples of Echizen Kanesaki mei, he signed using either Kuni or Hachiuemonjo in his mei. The sword in question has neither.
2. Chikuzen Kanesaki signed as this example is signed: (Chiku) zen Ju Shimosaka Kanesaki.
Attempting to determine anything further from the photos of the blade itself is pointless.
With the condition of the sword combined with the poor quality photos, all the research in the world is not going to reveal any usable results.
From the information provided, all you could possibly learn is:
1. It could be one of the two smith listed above. In my opinion there is a higher probability on the later, Chikuzen.
2. It could be gimei (forgery).
3. Someone has cleaned it improperly ruining the nakago.
4. in a couple of photos the kissaki looks odd, possibly reshaped (??)
5. Shinogi is washed out and uneven.
6. Yokote is washed completely away.
7. No visible hada or hamon.
8. Looks like buffer marks on the blade, which would explain 4, 5, 6,7.
9. Is it valuable? No.
10. Is it restorable? Maybe, however it is unlikely to be worth restoration, ie; it will cost more to restore than it will ever be worth.
11. The only exception to #10 is if it has a great, overwhelming sentimental value or you have money to burn.
Last edited:
Agree on most points, just not sure about #4. I think the photo may be distorting it, in on shot it looks like and American tanto point, in others it looks OK. The whole reason I started looking into was a possible distortion factor. Initially I thought WWII because of the shape and style of the blade. They tended to be a much heavier blade than the Shinto era. Some of the shots it looked thinner. I'm trying to figure curvature and shape from photos that I already concluded are making an accurate guess really hard. Right now I'm kinda leaning toward #2. (Silly Rabbit, please note if it is #2 that is not necessarily bad, as that was a fairly standard practice) However I think #10 is spot on, too far gone for a collector, best bet would be as a cutter for a sword martial artist.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 782
Thanks for all the input! It's amazing how diverse the knowledge on this board is
The front of the blade near the tip does not seem to have that distinctive hard transition edge from the straight portion of the blade to the tip (maybe it was buffed out/smooth)
Also no matter how hard I look I can't see any Hamon
Though I can see obvious evidence that the blade is forged
Funny how complicated and well studied these historic blades are
Amazing to think it could actually be over 400 years old!
Now I don't know what to do with it, admittedly I'm not a collector of swords though i have a Paul Chen (I think that is the name) and a busse ak47...
I do see online that if not a forgery (why mark a forgery with a mediocre maker?) it still may have some value (obviously not tremendous relatively)
Thanks again, this subject obviously takes a lifetime of mastery...
The front of the blade near the tip does not seem to have that distinctive hard transition edge from the straight portion of the blade to the tip (maybe it was buffed out/smooth)
Also no matter how hard I look I can't see any Hamon
Though I can see obvious evidence that the blade is forged
Funny how complicated and well studied these historic blades are
Amazing to think it could actually be over 400 years old!
Now I don't know what to do with it, admittedly I'm not a collector of swords though i have a Paul Chen (I think that is the name) and a busse ak47...
I do see online that if not a forgery (why mark a forgery with a mediocre maker?) it still may have some value (obviously not tremendous relatively)
Thanks again, this subject obviously takes a lifetime of mastery...
You won't see the hamon or hada just looking at it. Someone buffed it or sanded it as evidenced by the shiny nakago (it should be black). The only way to see it would be to get a proper polish. To have it polished correctly by someone properly trained would be quite expensive. (upwards of 2K). I don't know what the going rates are anymore but somewhere in the neighborhood or 100-200 per inch is ballpark. There are other methods but that would further degrade the condition.
NihontoEd
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 646
Just checking back in and noticed your most recent comments.
To address them:
"Also no matter how hard I look I can't see any Hamon"
This could be due to one of two reasons.
1. It may be occluded due to the buffing it received.
2. If it got hot while being buffed, the hamon could be gone now.
"I do see online that if not a forgery (why mark a forgery with a mediocre maker?)"
It would seem, but signing a mediocre makers name is much more common than you think. Don't know why and only speculation could be provided as I have never seen any historical reference as to why this was done. Certainly, it would be easy to speculate why someone would sign Masamune, but Kanesaki, who knows ?????
"it still may have some value (obviously not tremendous relatively)"
Depends on what you consider "some value". If you mean a couple of hundred bucks, maybe, but if and only if the hamon still exists. If the hamon has been destroyed by the buffer, it is basically worthless.
If you mean a couple of thousand, no!
This is a great example of why people with no experience should not muck about trying to clean or polish Japanese swords. This is not Grandpa's old hunting knife.
To be licensed, a Japanese sword polisher must complete a 10 year apprenticeship.
To address them:
"Also no matter how hard I look I can't see any Hamon"
This could be due to one of two reasons.
1. It may be occluded due to the buffing it received.
2. If it got hot while being buffed, the hamon could be gone now.
"I do see online that if not a forgery (why mark a forgery with a mediocre maker?)"
It would seem, but signing a mediocre makers name is much more common than you think. Don't know why and only speculation could be provided as I have never seen any historical reference as to why this was done. Certainly, it would be easy to speculate why someone would sign Masamune, but Kanesaki, who knows ?????
"it still may have some value (obviously not tremendous relatively)"
Depends on what you consider "some value". If you mean a couple of hundred bucks, maybe, but if and only if the hamon still exists. If the hamon has been destroyed by the buffer, it is basically worthless.
If you mean a couple of thousand, no!
This is a great example of why people with no experience should not muck about trying to clean or polish Japanese swords. This is not Grandpa's old hunting knife.
To be licensed, a Japanese sword polisher must complete a 10 year apprenticeship.